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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 62 34.3%

  • Out

    Votes: 119 65.7%
  • Total voters
    181
Grays_1890 said:
But that hasn't happened though, we navigated the bulk of the EL with the same side we had in the PL, the players came back from injury later on by pure circumstance of their injuries, they were not rested or chosen to play here and there. For Frankfurt maybe, but the rest we navigated with virtually the same availability in the PL.

The point is, the EL has not been some kind of genius operation whilst the PL has been put on the backburner, there is a reason we are as far as we are in it.
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Yes we did because we were down to the bare bones for the most of the league stage. For both knockout games since most/literally all of our squad had returned (and at this stage apparent we was not going to get anywhere in the league) key players were rested in the league and put in for the EL games. Like I said, the evidence is clear by the fact there are next to no games with our first choice eleven playing in the league over the past couple of months - even just our first choice back 5.....
 
Robspur12 said:
It does seem, Steff, with respect, that your posts are pushing the guy as some sort of victim in all this rather than the orchestrator. He's had 2 massive bits of luck, 1) the teams below us are so poor that we have not been sucked into a proper relegation fight. 2) that the board have stuck with him despite his record when other managers have been dispensed with far sooner.
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No.
Not a victim.
I simply believe there are many issues at the club and he is most certainly one of them.

With respect, you seem very determined to make this both a binary equation and paint me as an apologist, neither of which I feel are accurate or fair.

I am interested in seeing if we can solve long-standing problems at this football club despite the much-vaulted 'changes' versus focussing on the obvious issue (and it is most certainly, at this point, obvious) and repeating the same issues over and over again.

If you're interested in pointing fingers at orchestrators, look at who owns the toolbox/is in charge of managing the person/people in current custody of it. I think a massive question remains. Why has he been tolerated by the toolbox owners? There has to be a reason. THAT'S what I want to try and understand. Judgement of the custodeon -at this point- is beyond any reasonable dispute. I really wish you'd step back from what you see as a simple 'defence of Ange' and gauge what I'm saying mate. Maybe I have not been clear enough, in which case that sits on ,me.
 
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Muttley said:
Forget the fans, I only worried about our new manager not taking Dier seriously when we weren't well stocked with centre halves. He treated our long term stalwart terribly and it was an early indicator on Ange's abilities. To leave Dier in no mans land with the injuries we had was poor management knowing what a model pro Eric is. Ange made his own luck on this one, especially his relegation form on set piece defending.

By the way, this isn't me saying Dier is world class. He's not, but Ange's job is to work with the resources he is given. He didn't.
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I agree.
Of course, some of our fans showed their colours in this regard too, absolutely berating Dier far far beyond rationality. I'll say this. If we had him at the club this season, we would have avoided the collapses IMO. Might not be top 6 but we would not be in the terrible position we are; a proper leader!
 
harr1984 said:
Yes we did because we were down to the bare bones for the most of the league stage. For both knockout games since most/literally all of our squad had returned (and at this stage apparent we was not going to get anywhere in the league) key players were rested in the league and put in for the EL games. Like I said, the evidence is clear by the fact there are next to no games with our first choice eleven playing in the league over the past couple of months - even just our first choice back 5.....
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Mate this side has been getting tonked for months on end with all sorts of sides out and at varying stages of the season. Lets not kid ourselves that 19 league losses comes as a result of some pre formed genius idea that we were going for the EL when the truth is the way the EL is formed and the break mid winter helped as does the lack of real harmful quality. This is not "we are crap in the league because we are going the the EL" as many people are making it out
 
harr1984 said:
Yes we did because we were down to the bare bones for the most of the league stage. For both knockout games since most/literally all of our squad had returned (and at this stage apparent we was not going to get anywhere in the league) key players were rested in the league and put in for the EL games. Like I said, the evidence is clear by the fact there are next to no games with our first choice eleven playing in the league over the past couple of months - even just our first choice back 5.....
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Do you see much difference between the different combinations of eleven that take to the pitch though?

I don't. I think most of our squad is at a similar level. Perhaps the only exception is the gap between VDV and Davies.

I can't be sure, but what we may be seeing is some disenfranchised players. Whichever 11 cross the white line, they don't mentally believe in the system. Doesn't mean they won't work hard but there is definitely something missing in their application. It's enough to make the difference.
 
thfcsteff said:
I agree.
Of course, some of our fans showed their colours in this regard too, absolutely berating Dier far far beyond rationality. I'll say this. If we had him at the club this season, we would have avoided the collapses IMO. Might not be top 6 but we would not be in the terrible position we are; a proper leader!
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Mate come on Dier would have been absoloutely hung out to dry by the way we set up to defend
 
billyiddo said:
Mate come on Dier would have been absoloutely hung out to dry by the way we set up to defend
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I don't disagree that stylistically he might've been, however I do think that in the thick of it Jan/Feb, he might've been a senior who could've influenced a greater degree of adaptation within the coaching staff and maybe had a steadying influence on the dressing room. I might well be allowing my Eric appreciation to step over a boundary with such pointless assumptions, we'll never know. In truth, I think if PEH had been retained for one more season (he clearly was not interested in Angeball) he'd have had a similar effect. I wonder if when Ange talks about doing things differently in the summer, he rues how both were allowed to leave/drift? I thinkmPEH was unavoidable (in fairness I was not against it). Dier? It was poor.
 
thfcsteff said:
I agree.
Of course, some of our fans showed their colours in this regard too, absolutely berating Dier far far beyond rationality. I'll say this. If we had him at the club this season, we would have avoided the collapses IMO. Might not be top 6 but we would not be in the terrible position we are; a proper leader!
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Yeah, I wasn't on this forum through Dier's last 2 or 3 seasons but fans were quite hurtful towards him on the one I was on. Made him the spacegoat whereas others like Davies had mostly a free pass. My guess is that GG was the same.

Dier would have struggled with the high line, but he wouldn't have struggled as much with the deep offside traps we rely on far too much. As you say, he was an absolute leader but may have just used common sense and overruled his manager's tactics in the moment. That is perhaps why Ange was happy to keep him away from the first eleven until he left.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Mate this side has been getting tonked for months on end with all sorts of sides out and at varying stages of the season. Lets not kid ourselves that 19 league losses comes as a result of some pre formed genius idea that we were going for the EL when the truth is the way the EL is formed and the break mid winter helped as does the lack of real harmful quality. This is not "we are crap in the league because we are going the the EL" as many people are making it out
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I'm still not sure where you're getting this genius/masterplan idea from:D Maybe I've missed it discussed elsewhere.

Ive just said the facts - we had an injury crisis. Injury crisis finished. At this point obvious no chance of Europe via league. Only opportunity to qualify for Europe is via EL. Our big players all return from injury. Said players scarcely used in league games and a real mixture starting elevens are played in PL games. Strongest team picked in EL knockout games.

Just prioritising to try and make something out of the season....
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
They've been playing together recently and both look completely hopeless together. Unsure why Danso who looked so promising has been dropped in favour of Romero and not reinstated following pathetic mistake after pathetic mistake by Romero....
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We saw today why Danso isn't the answer to any of our questions. I think Romero is only showing up for EL games, mentally too.
 
thfcsteff said:
I don't disagree that stylistically he might've been, however I do think that in the thick of it Jan/Feb, he might've been a senior who could've influenced a greater degree of adaptation within the coaching staff and maybe had a steadying influence on the dressing room. I might well be allowing my Eric appreciation to step over a boundary with such pointless assumptions, we'll never know. In truth, I think if PEH had been retained for one more season (he clearly was not interested in Angeball) he'd have had a similar effect. I wonder if when Ange talks about doing things differently in the summer, he rues how both were allowed to leave/drift? I thinkmPEH was unavoidable (in fairness I was not against it). Dier? It was poor.
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I don't on Hoj. He was one of the first ones to quit on the system last time around. His levels fell away sharply and I have a feeling he thought he was too good for us.
 
Muttley said:
Do you see much difference between the different combinations of eleven that take to the pitch though?

I don't. I think most of our squad is at a similar level. Perhaps the only exception is the gap between VDV and Davies.

I can't be sure, but what we may be seeing is some disenfranchised players. Whichever 11 cross the white line, they don't mentally believe in the system. Doesn't mean they won't work hard but there is definitely something missing in their application. It's enough to make the difference.
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Yeah Davies is a painful one at CB. But making wholesale changes in a football team hardly ever goes well for anyone and we have been doing it constantly. But it's amplified in the defensive area for sure, and with the high line tactics Ange likes to employ it's only going to look worse. You could be right and they don't believe in the system, but even if they did I don't think it would make much difference when there is no consistency in the team being put out on a weekly basis....
 
harr1984 said:
I'm still not sure where you're getting this genius/masterplan idea from:D Maybe I've missed it discussed elsewhere.

Ive just said the facts - we had an injury crisis. Injury crisis finished. At this point obvious no chance of Europe via league. Only opportunity to qualify for Europe is via EL. Our big players all return from injury. Said players scarcely used in league games and a real mixture starting elevens are played in PL games. Strongest team picked in EL knockout games.

Just prioritising to try and make something out of the season....
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My point is, I will give Ange props if he wins the EL but I can't at the moment overlook the league form for being the SF Like its been part of some plan all along, being in the SF does not answer the league form and as I say there are likely reasons we as others are in the last 4 and also languishing in the league
 
billyiddo said:
However, 1934/35 we recorded 30 points from 42 games, upscaled to 40 points (2 > 3 points for a win) so statistically speaking that would be our worst ever season and at this stage Ange can't mathematically reach that ppg (there's always next year Ange...)
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In fairness, I cannot count seasons of doom for which I was not alive, thus yes, this has statistically taken the biscuit...and lost it during the early dunks :-(
 
harr1984 said:
I'm still not sure where you're getting this genius/masterplan idea from:D Maybe I've missed it discussed elsewhere.

Ive just said the facts - we had an injury crisis. Injury crisis finished. At this point obvious no chance of Europe via league. Only opportunity to qualify for Europe is via EL. Our big players all return from injury. Said players scarcely used in league games and a real mixture starting elevens are played in PL games. Strongest team picked in EL knockout games.

Just prioritising to try and make something out of the season....
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He could have gone for Europe through the league even relatively late on. The league is not great, which makes our struggles in it even worse.
 
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