Gazza
Jimmy Neighbour
Ange-Delight tapioca pudding at its finest
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Ange in or out?
- Thread starter Yiddo
- Start date
mudshark
Chris Armstrong
It's precisely because of the event you describe that I'm able to make the statement I did.
Silly McSilly Face
Bobby Mimms
Yes I've said before that most of our players look poor at the moment as there seem to be some basic fundamentals that aren't being worked on (either enough or at all) and these are things like tactical shape, attacking and defensive zones of responsibility, attacking and defensive set pieces. While people have debated the extent to which he was being sarcastic and actually meant it, at the end of the day you only have Ange's words on the subject, which are that he doesn't work on these things and isn't interested in doing so.
That shows on the pitch in consistently poor shape, players passing off marking responsibilities to nobody and leaving the opposition free in dangerous areas consistently (well consistently enough for us to concede high quality chances at an unsustainable rate), players getting in each other's way (remember x2 of our players running into each other going for the same ball?). More and more recently it's impacted on our attacking play as sometimes the player receives the ball and as everyone has run off forward in Ange's "chaos theory" system, there's no easy "progressive" passing option so the ball has to come back or go sideways, or what you get is an attempt to execute a difficult progressive pass that gets intercepted and we then have an opposition break on with most of our players ahead of the ball.....but most of all, it breeds indecision or rash behaviour. Because we don't work on this stuff on the training pitch and as the last coach that did fades into background memory, what you get is players being unsure what to do in situations and either hesitating (which at this level means your already dead) or following their own instincts in a rash manner, which is where you get players lunging at opposition, stepping out of defensive lines, one player pushing up while another drops back, you get consistent WTF decisions like the x2 ridiculous tackles against Chelsea.
I don't think the players are as bad or as stupid as they look currently. What they are is lacking confidence, lacking clear instructions and training in vital aspects and they're clearly trying their best for the manager (one thing on Ange: he's never lost the dressing room), but indecision and poor/rash decisioning are symptoms of the fundamental coaching failures I'm talking about.
DeanoAustin
Paul Walsh
In a hypothetical world, if Spurs were choosing between Gooner George and Jose, who would you prefer (or hate least)?
thfcsteff
Tony Galvin
Dear GHod...what a horrific fudging question. I am wired in my hatred of GGG, I think Jose is an utter clam (however can concede he has done some nice things - he was walking with StMaxims dog in a video the other day and that made me smile - but honestly, I might fudge off and follow Barnet until we'd sacked whichever one we chose? Alright alright...Jose (ugggh I feel dirty)...
veryoldspur
Øyvind Leonhardsen
Firstly, the ups last season were the first ten games, the downs were the remaining 28 league games and the cup games, so in brief not very successful at all.
After the first ten games we looked worse and worse, albeit with the occasional decent game. The players need coaching and organising, and it's obvious they get neither. I visualise their training sessions and imagine them running around the pitch a few times then just having penalty practice. Ange stands on the side line with his arms crossed watching the game like a rabbit blinded by head lights.
Because Levy has allowed this to go on so long the value of our players has depreciated significantly, and enticing any half decent player to join us will be a nightmare. Ange needed sacking last season, and if we had of done it we wouldn't be in the mess we are now
Mr Gogolak
Terry Yorath
We keep speculating about what happens or doesn't happen on the training ground but one interesting thing to notice - I think - is that in spite of our abysmal results, very few players complain about Postecoglou or his methods. There have been a few noises coming from Romero and Maddison but, at the same time, a few players have gone out of their way to defend him - including Kulusevski.
How long did it take for the players to complain about Espirito Santo (who had much better results) or revolt against Mourinho? In a different context, I remember reading the players were baffled by Matthaus' training methods when he was managing Hungary, a long time ago.
Kulusevski's example is an interesting one. He played for Juve in what we can only assume is one of the most professional set-up in the world and yet he never had a bad word about Postecoglou's training methods. I'm not trying to make a point, by the way - I just find it... strange? curious? interesting? that something that appears amateurish to us fans isn't picked up on by the players themselves.
How long did it take for the players to complain about Espirito Santo (who had much better results) or revolt against Mourinho? In a different context, I remember reading the players were baffled by Matthaus' training methods when he was managing Hungary, a long time ago.
Kulusevski's example is an interesting one. He played for Juve in what we can only assume is one of the most professional set-up in the world and yet he never had a bad word about Postecoglou's training methods. I'm not trying to make a point, by the way - I just find it... strange? curious? interesting? that something that appears amateurish to us fans isn't picked up on by the players themselves.
You and I may get abused on here for this.
But I actually thought we played well going forward in that first half against Everton better than we did most of the year TBH.
Yes Everton had gilt edge chances but teams against us with Ange always do. The difference is they put them away, and were 3-0 up at half time. If we are being honest that could have happened loads of times this season.
My disappointment with the Everton game and subsequently he didn’t stick with the 3 at the back for a longer period to see if that change would have worked… because not changing anything certainly hasn’t worked.
In my option for his system of full backs that play so far up the field and central to work 3 at the back makes a load of sense.
Bedfordspurs
Joe Kinnear
I think so
You so a seed of doubt and it grows
And if in the next game the plan doesn’t work it sprouts roots… it grows again
That’s why we’re playing nothing like Ange ball now and it’s a clear mess
Mikey10
Paul Robinson
Mr Gogolak
Terry Yorath
I don't plan on abusing you but I think you conveniently forget that Everton were beyond poor at this stage of the season. They didn't just 'take their chances', they were at the point where they couldn't create anything at all. Sometimes, you have to draw the line and what happened there was beyond unprofessional, as far as I'm concerned.
He's training with the players every day. He wants to play three at the back? Fine. I'm all for it but you don't make that kind of decision just before the game or, if he made it earlier, you don't send a team half-prepared. The players didn't know what they were doing or what they were supposed to be doing and, if I remember correctly, Everton didn't just 'take their chances' - they also had a couple of other huge opportunities to punish us.
The question isn't about the formation and its merit or even moving on from his basic system. I think everyone (at the time) would have been over the moon if we had a plan B that we could use in game. But you don't send a half-roostered team in a Premier League game, let alone an important one. This isn't Scotland. He should have been sacked at half-time.
Mr Gogolak
Terry Yorath
Fair enough but Dier was only there for the first six months of Postecoglou's tenure if I remember correctly. It's not unusual for a 'system manager' to try and drill the basics into the players. It would have been interesting to ask him for a comparison between Postecoglou and Conte, for instance. Plus, he's been kicked out of the club by Postecoglou so he could have been holding a grudge.
Mikey10
Paul Robinson
Or he was a very loyal club servant, and highly experienced senior player, simply stating what he saw.
As a fanbase, it really is time to stop looking for excuses for the utter s hitshow that has unfolded since we appointed a bloke who is so obviously out of his depth. Let’s call it for what it is and move on.
Silly McSilly Face
Bobby Mimms
Because I imagine the training sessions under Ange are very enjoyable because I suspect it is entirely focused on attacking overloads and finishing. It is clear that is the primary focus of Ange's training and it is actually very effective in terms of its output on the real match situations. We are clearly a nightmare to play against defensively. How many teams have actually managed to shut us out over almost 2 seasons? Can't think of many. We do overload the opposition consistently and we score consistently. And I think the players enjoy that aspect and see the value in it. I also think the players were of similar mind to the board and many fans and even the media in that the constant injuries made it very hard to 100% attribute failure to Ange's methods but I do think you can hear and see the first rumblings of discontent, certainly we've had the first press leaks and Ange's comments on leaks suggests all is not well on the inside anymore...
Mikey10
Paul Robinson
We’ve had increasing numbers of games in which we register no/barely any shots.
Silly McSilly Face
Bobby Mimms
Yep. And that's because of our shape becoming more erratic and ragged from an attacking sense as I've articulated and the player on the ball often doesn't have an easy progressive passing option. I'm talking about why there haven't been rumblings of discontent re: training. Because training under Ange is likely enjoyable and doesn't feature the kind of repetitive drills coaches do at this level. I.e. theres no getting players to stand in formation and move up and down and side to side in formation over and over again until its second nature that I imagine players find boring. And until recently Ange's training clearly had a positive impact on the attacking side of the in-game results.
veryoldspur
Øyvind Leonhardsen
You can analyse and speculate as much as you wish, the fact is that with or without injuries we lose game after game after game, and are heading towards the worst ever premiership season we have ever had. Anyone can see that our players are far better than our performances, and we have spent a lot of money in Ange's tenure. He is clearly out of his depth, it's obvious that he is incapable of turning things around, and it's time for him to go. Unfortunately for Mr Levy the value of our players have probably halved as a result of not getting rid of Ange earlier, so our next manager has got a big job in front of him
Mikey10
Paul Robinson
Is that true? I’ve found us an awful watch for over a year, and the results have, by and large, been terrible.
Baleforce
Vinnie Samways
Or it’s too easy and they are to too savvy to complain.
Silly McSilly Face
Bobby Mimms
You're right. I'm just speculating. And just to be clear, I didnt want Ange in the first place and have been a vocal critic on here throughout his time. I am speculating as i too find it odd that there's been no clear signs of players complaining or downing tools and we are still up there in terms of running/effort. I find it extremely odd too that he hasn't been sacked and has been afforded an unusual amount of grace by the media. It's only in the last few weeks that I've seen media headlines talking in real negative terms about Postecoglu's tactics and results. And this is in the context of one of the poorest seasons in the club's entire history.