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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 74 42.5%
  • Out

    Votes: 100 57.5%

  • Total voters
    174
True but isn't that jts's point?

We are scoring plenty. We aren't conceding anything unusual in terms of numbers so this idea we can't defend for toffee is questionable. Why have the results not come?

I wouldn't give him another season personally but I haven't seen an explanation in all the Ange-bashing that explains why we are in such a different position to what our GD would normally suggest .... especially as we haven't regularly thumped teams to boost the GS side of things.

the main complaint seems to be that he doesn't coach defence and that our full backs push up and in and leave massive gaps - which may be true but is no worse them Emery and Nuno are achieving and they are top 5.

Game control, that simple

Against one of the statistically worst teams the PL has ever seen today, you saw it again, a game that should have been dead after 20 mins suddenly was last 5 minutes squeaky bum again.

You have to manage games, Ange doesnt, that's why it won't work.
 
True but isn't that jts's point?

We are scoring plenty. We aren't conceding anything unusual in terms of numbers so this idea we can't defend for toffee is questionable. Why have the results not come?

I wouldn't give him another season personally but I haven't seen an explanation in all the Ange-bashing that explains why we are in such a different position to what our GD would normally suggest .... especially as we haven't regularly thumped teams to boost the GS side of things.

the main complaint seems to be that he doesn't coach defence and that our full backs push up and in and leave massive gaps - which may be true but is no worse them Emery and Nuno are achieving and they are top 5.

We have conceded 45 goals this season

Top 4 are 30, 26, 37 and 37
Only 8 teams (I think) have conceded more than us in the pl this season

Last season we conceded 61
Before Ange it was 40, 40, 45, 47
 
True but isn't that jts's point?

We are scoring plenty. We aren't conceding anything unusual in terms of numbers so this idea we can't defend for toffee is questionable. Why have the results not come?

I wouldn't give him another season personally but I haven't seen an explanation in all the Ange-bashing that explains why we are in such a different position to what our GD would normally suggest .... especially as we haven't regularly thumped teams to boost the GS side of things.

the main complaint seems to be that he doesn't coach defence and that our full backs push up and in and leave massive gaps - which may be true but is no worse them Emery and Nuno are achieving and they are top 5.

Yes, as I mentioned, before the Liverpool 6-3 loss we were top four for goals scored, goals conceded and goal difference. Iirc, we were top two or three in a couple of them. But we were already something like ten points adrift, even when our defence was one of the best.

It could be bad luck or something else. Flat track bullies, although we've had some bad defeats. Possibly there are too many late goals with no consequence (e.g. against Liverpool).

I always look at these numbers mid-season. The GD in particular often shows outliers. That is usually a sign of a club too low or too high in the table and it tends to correct by the end of the season. It's got worse for us.
 
True but isn't that jts's point?

We are scoring plenty. We aren't conceding anything unusual in terms of numbers so this idea we can't defend for toffee is questionable. Why have the results not come?

I wouldn't give him another season personally but I haven't seen an explanation in all the Ange-bashing that explains why we are in such a different position to what our GD would normally suggest .... especially as we haven't regularly thumped teams to boost the GS side of things.

the main complaint seems to be that he doesn't coach defence and that our full backs push up and in and leave massive gaps - which may be true but is no worse them Emery and Nuno are achieving and they are top 5.

Because there are a couple of teams in the league who hadn't figured out how to get a result against us. Southampton for 1. We'd beat them 5-0. Then 4 other teams would nick a goal and defend in numbers beating us 1-0.
Over 5 games we'd have a positive goal difference. But lost 4 out of 5 games.
 
Here's the table from 19 December: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024–25_Premier_League&oldid=1263972818#League_table

Second in goals for (behind Chelsea), equal third in goals conceded (behind Liverpool and Arsenal), third in GD, one worse than Liverpool and Chelsea, but 13 and 11 points behind them.

As someone mentioned above, it could be bad game management, in which case Ange has to go. But it could be largely freaky luck. I'm not saying we should top four or five, just that the current position is not necessarily a reflection of our play.
 
Here's the table from 19 December: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024–25_Premier_League&oldid=1263972818#League_table

Second in goals for (behind Chelsea), equal third in goals conceded (behind Liverpool and Arsenal), third in GD, one worse than Liverpool and Chelsea, but 13 and 11 points behind them.

As someone mentioned above, it could be bad game management, in which case Ange has to go. But it could be largely freaky luck. I'm not saying we should top four or five, just that the current position is not necessarily a reflection of our play.
Game control, that simple

Against one of the statistically worst teams the PL has ever seen today, you saw it again, a game that should have been dead after 20 mins suddenly was last 5 minutes squeaky bum again.

You have to manage games, Ange doesnt, that's why it won't work.
I thought he tried to today TBF

Full backs told to stay home and we had chances on the counter we messed up

For all the ball Southampton didn't create much in the second half , thought we killed the game - till Odobert switched off
 
Here's the table from 19 December: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024–25_Premier_League&oldid=1263972818#League_table

Second in goals for (behind Chelsea), equal third in goals conceded (behind Liverpool and Arsenal), third in GD, one worse than Liverpool and Chelsea, but 13 and 11 points behind them.

As someone mentioned above, it could be bad game management, in which case Ange has to go. But it could be largely freaky luck. I'm not saying we should top four or five, just that the current position is not necessarily a reflection of our play.
If you watch the league games v Everton, Leicester, Arsenal, Chelsea and Fulham, our league position is very much a result of our play.

There are some statistical anomalies but we play an unusual style of football IMO. Our league position and our form over 18 months tells me all I need to know.
 
We have conceded 45 goals this season

Top 4 are 30, 26, 37 and 37
Only 8 teams (I think) have conceded more than us in the pl this season

Last season we conceded 61
Before Ange it was 40, 40, 45, 47
Vicario has the highest prevented goals in the league.

I can remember 4 times we've cleared the ball of our line as well without really thinking

We can't defend
 
Game control, that simple

Against one of the statistically worst teams the PL has ever seen today, you saw it again, a game that should have been dead after 20 mins suddenly was last 5 minutes squeaky bum again.

You have to manage games, Ange doesnt, that's why it won't work.
The absence of control when we are ahead has dogged us throughout Ange's time. And I think we are just poor as a defensive unit. Ball watching and a general failure to pick up runners has led to great chances for our opponents. My son has been highlighting for me how we leave open the players at the far post, and today was another example. You add in the high line and the advanced full backs and against any opponent, we are giving up gilt edged chances. Chances that are usually better than those that we have. Even today, against a team that is leading the "worst of all time" table, we could have been behind.

In the end, I can only view these last two years as demonstrating that Ange's style of play is ill suited to the Premier League. IMHO, it requires unachievable perfection to dominate and score while not conceding. Can it work? Well in a league where he coaches a side that is forever a winner and streets ahead of most opponents, I can see it working. But in the Premier League, where all bar the promoted teams are well financed and staffed, well I think we can see the result.

Those first 10 games just appear to have been the anomaly here where we got the breaks and the luck, had teams still trying to work us out, and built up a head of steam. Thereafter, the flaws have been exposed and the injuries that accompany his demands have led to our current position. The goal difference is a weird anomaly too, but who among us can honestly say that our performances have inspired confidence? No progression in an upward direction whatever our personnel must justify a change, whatever happens in the Europa.
 
I wouldn't give him another season personally but I haven't seen an explanation in all the Ange-bashing that explains why we are in such a different position to what our GD would normally suggest .... especially as we haven't regularly thumped teams to boost the GS side of things.
This has been explained previously in a reasonably plausible way. Ange's system throws players forward to score goals. Hence we score a lot of them. This means we win games where we are on top, by a clear margin. However, we struggle to win tight games so not many of our wins are by a single goal. Even where we lose, it tends to be by a single goal because we often score ourselves (see above). None of that means we defend well. If we did, we would win more games and not have lost so many. In the PL there will be more tight games rather than games where we are clearly out on top. So defending well first, trumps scoring lots of goals.
 
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The absence of control when we are ahead has dogged us throughout Ange's time. And I think we are just poor as a defensive unit. Ball watching and a general failure to pick up runners has led to great chances for our opponents. My son has been highlighting for me how we leave open the players at the far post, and today was another example. You add in the high line and the advanced full backs and against any opponent, we are giving up gilt edged chances. Chances that are usually better than those that we have. Even today, against a team that is leading the "worst of all time" table, we could have been behind.

In the end, I can only view these last two years as demonstrating that Ange's style of play is ill suited to the Premier League. IMHO, it requires unachievable perfection to dominate and score while not conceding. Can it work? Well in a league where he coaches a side that is forever a winner and streets ahead of most opponents, I can see it working. But in the Premier League, where all bar the promoted teams are well financed and staffed, well I think we can see the result.

Those first 10 games just appear to have been the anomaly here where we got the breaks and the luck, had teams still trying to work us out, and built up a head of steam. Thereafter, the flaws have been exposed and the injuries that accompany his demands have led to our current position. The goal difference is a weird anomaly too, but who among us can honestly say that our performances have inspired confidence? No progression in an upward direction whatever our personnel must justify a change, whatever happens in the Europa.
And looking at Celtic's history over the past few years, with one losing season, they have had 5 other years of ridiculous results in the Premiership -- particularly notable is the gap from the third placed team which is usually 20+ points. Ange's one season had them as being a higher scorer than normal but they also conceded more. I do find it interesting that Rangers were equally dominant that season, finishing 9 points behind Celtic but36 points ahead of the third placed team. Given how poor every other team apart from the Glasgow teams is in Scotland, hard for anyone to extrapolate that Ange would make it with us.
 
I'm torn about giving another season, based on the goals record. Is there something freaky about this season or is it related to Ange's strategy.

We are currently second for goals scored, 6th on GD, and mid-table on goals conceded despite all the injuries. Before the Liverpool game we were top four on all three although already many points behind the others. Why are we getting less points than others?
  • Our current GD is +13, while Forest are +14. They have 20 points more than us.
  • We have scored 58 and conceded 45. Villa are 46-46. They've scored 12 goals less than us and conceded one more, but have 14 more points
  • City are 57-40, one less goals scored and only five less conceded. Yet they have 14 points more than us.
  • Brighton are 49-47. Nine goals less scored and two more conceded but ten points ahead of us.
I've done this before. When we win we often win big. Ange believes in keeping going, keeping the pressure up all game. When we lose we don't tend to lose by much because we keep attacking, even if 3-0 and have rescued quite a few hammering back to respectable scoreline by scoring a couple of goals after the opposition have eased off.

What we are very very bad at, under Postecoglu is seeing out a tight 1-0 or 2-1 win or even a point when we are in a battle against a team playing well, or are just off the boil ourselves. So when we win, we often win by more than 2 goals. When we don't win by more than 2 goals (i.e. when our play is matched or bettered by the opponent and the game is tight, we tend to lose).
 
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