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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 74 42.5%

  • Out

    Votes: 100 57.5%
  • Total voters
    174
billyiddo said:
I see we've reached the 'players fault' part of the 'anyone but the manager' cycle.


Football is a team sport, if the team isn't set up correctly the individuals will look poor, barring the odd exception - every game we play there is evidence that the setup is not working and that is not fair grounds to judge a player on.
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Yes, Romero was an ever reliable defender pre Ange not doing anything stupid as was Porro. Kulu can still manage to show his quality, Spence can waltz into the side and show what a proper full back looks like. But of course the rest of the players are great, just big bad Ange that's making them look average. Why was Maddison not wanted by anyone better before he came to us and seldom gets picked for England? Son has been on the decline for two years. No doubt Ange is partly at fault and you're absolutely right setup is important. But as a collective our players are they type that are consistently inconsistent, for a number of reasons ranging from being young players to just not being that good.

At the same time it as the setup not being right it can be true that we don't have as good a players as we like to think, and people time after time just pile in on the manager because of their inflated expectations. Managers of whom leave Spurs to prove they are absolutely fine managers and it wouldn't surprise me to see Ange do the same.....
 
Muttley said:
I want to be clear though. Our goal wasn't correctly disallowed from PGMOL's perspective.

The laws of the game are not the important piece. The process that is in place by FIFA needs to look at whether Pawson made a "clear and obvious" error in the lead up to the goal. He actually did. He could have easily been forgiven for missing that foul by Sarr but it was a foul. Now if so called professional PGMOL employees are taking that long then it's not clear and obvious to them. That was Ange's point. I'm not sure why because it took me about 2 seconds to see the foul.

Personally, I am happy that these items are getting this much attention and want every manager, player and pundit to keep piling the pressure on the massive discrepancy between the actual LAWS vs this "clear and obvious" nonsense. PGMOL should feel pressure every day of their lives until they start performing at the right level. FIFA (IFAB) need to change the clear and obvious nonsense and just apply the laws of the game.

The guy that should be taking the main part of this heat should be Howard Webb, not Ange. There is simply nowhere for Webb and his bunch of incompetent officials to hide at this point. How many more seasons in the PL are that PGMOL team going to ruin? How much longer should we put up with it?

As for whether Ange picked the right moment. I think every football stakeholder should take every moment to push back on PGMOL until they put in corrective actions. Then we can give them some slack.
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Just to add what was talked about post game on my feed. Is they (Hoddle and Timmy) suggested there was a VAR discussion around the foul itself and the level of punishment for Sarr, being that it was a high foot and studs to the knee. I think they, as professionals, could see it was a player trying to knick/toe the ball forward but got there a smidge late as Caiceado leg came across. Officials don't always think like that (especially when action is slowed down)...so um and ah about it back and forth hence the extra delay
 
harr1984 said:
Yes, Romero was an ever reliable defender pre Ange not doing anything stupid as was Porro. Kulu can still manage to show his quality, Spence can waltz into the side and show what a proper full back looks like. But of course the rest of the players are great, just big bad Ange that's making them look average. Why was Maddison not wanted by anyone better before he came to us and seldom gets picked for England? Son has been on the decline for two years. No doubt Ange is partly at fault and you're absolutely right setup is important. But as a collective our players are they type that are consistently inconsistent, for a number of reasons ranging from being young players to just not being that good.

At the same time it as the setup not being right it can be true that we don't have as good a players as we like to think, and people time after time just pile in on the manager because of their inflated expectations. Managers of whom leave Spurs to prove they are absolutely fine managers and it wouldn't surprise me to see Ange do the same.....
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Maddison had a choice between us and Saudi Sportswashing Machine mate

We've had a lot of turnover in the squad the last couple of years and it feels like people are still judging it off of the period end of days Poch through to Mourinho-Conte. The bulk of the current squad are yet to have been played here in a functioning setup, once we see them play in one we can make an informed appraisal on their abilities.
 
Daveeeeeeeed said:
I haven't seen it but I spoke to a dad at school yesterday who is a spurs fan, and he said Harry Redknapp was asked to assess the spurs team and his team he managed, and apparently he didn't pick one of the current spurs team, even picking Dawson over Romero and VDV.

After thinking about it and looking at the team, I think he could be right. He did pick Gomes over Vicario though which I think is a bit too much.

But everyone else you could give an argument to keep in.
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Dawson was a solid defender. Didn't make the daft lunges Romero makes and doesn't lose sight of the situation and the ball like VDV does. Dawson knew his limitations, a key self reflective trait in a good defender particularly very rarely allowed his lack of pace to be exposed, he stayed close to Ledley and Walker. I'd pick Kaboul and Gallas over Romero and VDV also 2bh. My combined Redknapp/Postecoglu era squad:

------------------------------Vicario
------------------------------Gomes

Walker-------Dawson-----------King---------Rose
Corluka--------Gallas----------Kaboul-------Ekotto

---------------Huddlestone-----Modric
-------------------Sandro----------Parker

Lennon-------------Van der Vaart-------------Bale Kulusevski--------------Kranjcar----------------Son

-----------------------------Adebayor
----------------------Crouch/Keane/Defoe

Not really surprise: Redknapp's team was top 4/5 and this team is just above the relegation places. Even if Ange was competent I think we'd be about 6th-7th tops.

I mean just look at that midfield compared to what we have now. Bergvall consistently looks our most competent player and he's a f***ing kid playing his first season in a top league.
 
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billyiddo said:
Maddison had a choice between us and Saudi Sportswashing Machine mate

We've had a lot of turnover in the squad the last couple of years and it feels like people are still judging it off of the period end of days Poch through to Mourinho-Conte. The bulk of the current squad are yet to have been played here in a functioning setup, once we see them play in one we can make an informed appraisal on their abilities.
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Saudi Sportswashing Machine are like us a team you could place anywhere from 4-8th, which is about his level. He has never demonstrated consistency anywhere, hence why no one bigger was in for him in his prime years for what was a modest transfer fee.

I just can't agree that in two years genuine top players wouldn't show themselves to be of genuine quality and that it's on Anges setup for this. But I do acknowledge we have a lot of young players who hopefully will show themselves to be of the desired quality regardless and I don't think we need major surgery in terms of numbers. For me an established 26 year old ish CM and a very good winger is priority, we have enough young potential players in these areas. And another good CF wouldn't go amiss either....
 
harr1984 said:
Saudi Sportswashing Machine are like us a team you could place anywhere from 4-8th, which is about his level. He has never demonstrated consistency anywhere, hence why no one bigger was in for him in his prime years for what was a modest transfer fee.

I just can't agree that in two years genuine top players wouldn't show themselves to be of genuine quality and that it's on Anges setup for this. But I do acknowledge we have a lot of young players who hopefully will show themselves to be of the desired quality regardless and I don't think we need major surgery in terms of numbers. For me an established 26 year old ish CM and a very good winger is priority, we have enough young potential players in these areas. And another good CF wouldn't go amiss either....
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It's a team game, you need a functioning team in order to get the best out of the players. Every so often you will have a Kane or a Bale who can perform to high level irrespective of what is around them but those players are the exception, not the norm.


4th-8th is probably a fair assessment of Maddison and a lot of our players on paper. A managers job for me is to create a team greater than the sum of it's parts, a good manager achieves that, whilst an average manager would have a team performing to it's level and a bad manager would have us under performing - i think we should expect whoever our manager is to do a good job in order to keep his job, which means taking a set of players and building a team that out performs the level of it's indivual parts - if they aren't doing that then what value are they adding?
 
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Maybe we overrate our players at times but they are not as bad as they look now.

Udogie looked like he could be the best left back in the league for a lot of the last year. He has the ability.

Romero is wanted by Madrid apparently. He’s talented. Yes he’s been error prone under 3 coaches now albeit under Conte, he was light years ahead of how he’s played this year.

VdV was always suspect defensively but I think he could look much better in a team that defends better.

Bentancur was an outstanding player under Conte. Have injuries taken their toll or is he struggling in this system? I don’t know and neither does anyone else.

Maddison has always been streaky but had spells when he was unplayable including when he first came. He has looked a passenger for 12 months. I bet he improves under another manager.

Son isn’t a winger. He’s declining undoubtedly but we’re asking him to play a role where his weaknesses are emphasised rather than playing to his strengths.

When things are good, you’re never as good as you think. When they’re bad, they aren’t as hopeless as they seem. This squad is easily good enough to at least push for the Europa places. The man in charge isn’t.

I could point out a bunch of instances where the shape of the team is causing problems but it’s all been said before. Ange goes, we’ll improve. I’d stake my first born on it.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Maybe we overrate our players at times but they are not as bad as they look now.

Udogie looked like he could be the best left back in the league for a lot of the last year. He has the ability.

Romero is wanted by Madrid apparently. He’s talented. Yes he’s been error prone under 3 coaches now albeit under Conte, he was light years ahead of how he’s played this year.

VdV was always suspect defensively but I think he could look much better in a team that defends better.

Bentancur was an outstanding player under Conte. Have injuries taken their toll or is he struggling in this system? I don’t know and neither does anyone else.

Maddison has always been streaky but had spells when he was unplayable including when he first came. He has looked a passenger for 12 months. I bet he improves under another manager.

Son isn’t a winger. He’s declining undoubtedly but we’re asking him to play a role where his weaknesses are emphasised rather than playing to his strengths.

When things are good, you’re never as good as you think. When they’re bad, they aren’t as hopeless as they seem. This squad is easily good enough to at least push for the Europa places. The man in charge isn’t.

I could point out a bunch of instances where the shape of the team is causing problems but it’s all been said before. Ange goes, we’ll improve. I’d stake my first born on it.
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Udogie has been here two seasons now, he has been poor for longer than he has good. The excuse originally was that he was coming back from injury, that excuse has long gone. Spence has come on and shown himself what a decent full back looks like, so you can't put it on Ange and his setup.

Romero would undoubtedly fit in at Madrid where his antics are the norm and they get away with a lot more than a Spurs player would. But regardless, he has been inconsistent since day 1 - he got sent off first game for Conte didn't he? He just is not reliable when he is on the pitch and then add the fact you can't even rely on him to be on the pitch in the first place. If a decent offer comes in we should take it.

Son, if he's not a winger then he sure as hell isn't a CF so what is he?! He's just not good enough now if we want to be where we want to be.

And sure, of course they will all look magically better when the new manager comes. Just like most were crowing how 'refreshing' it was when Ange came and we looked to play front foot football. But give it a decent period and they will revert back to type. Our squad is better than where it currently sits for sure, but we need some more upgrades and for some of our youngsters to hit the levels their potential suggests they could for us to be where some think this squad already should be. That said, with no Europe probably next season we should have a good chance to get back up there....
 
harr1984 said:
Udogie has been here two seasons now, he has been poor for longer than he has good. The excuse originally was that he was coming back from injury, that excuse has long gone. Spence has come on and shown himself what a decent full back looks like, so you can't put it on Ange and his setup.

Romero would undoubtedly fit in at Madrid where his antics are the norm and they get away with a lot more than a Spurs player would. But regardless, he has been inconsistent since day 1 - he got sent off first game for Conte didn't he? He just is not reliable when he is on the pitch and then add the fact you can't even rely on him to be on the pitch in the first place. If a decent offer comes in we should take it.

Son, if he's not a winger then he sure as hell isn't a CF so what is he?! He's just not good enough now if we want to be where we want to be.

And sure, of course they will all look magically better when the new manager comes. Just like most were crowing how 'refreshing' it was when Ange came and we looked to play front foot football. But give it a decent period and they will revert back to type. Our squad is better than where it currently sits for sure, but we need some more upgrades and for some of our youngsters to hit the levels their potential suggests they could for us to be where some think this squad already should be. That said, with no Europe probably next season we should have a good chance to get back up there....
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Spence has been dreadful lately. Really poor. I like the lad but we shouldn’t go overboard on him. On Udogie, he’s still a young lad. He has the ability and I think he’ll bounce back. Playing full back under Ange is very difficult.

Son is on the decline and should probably not be a starter anymore. For me he’s best playing more central off a centre forward. That said, the last thing I expected to go was his finishing and there have been signs of it in the last season or so. Like a boxer with a good punch, I’d have expected him to be lethal well into his 30s.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Spence has been dreadful lately. Really poor. I like the lad but we shouldn’t go overboard on him. On Udogie, he’s still a young lad. He has the ability and I think he’ll bounce back. Playing full back under Ange is very difficult.

Son is on the decline and should probably not be a starter anymore. For me he’s best playing more central off a centre forward. That said, the last thing I expected to go was his finishing and there have been signs of it in the last season or so. Like a boxer with a good punch, I’d have expected him to be lethal well into his 30s.
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His confidence has gone. As has most of the players. They're second guessing everything they do.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Spence has been dreadful lately. Really poor. I like the lad but we shouldn’t go overboard on him. On Udogie, he’s still a young lad. He has the ability and I think he’ll bounce back. Playing full back under Ange is very difficult.

Son is on the decline and should probably not be a starter anymore. For me he’s best playing more central off a centre forward. That said, the last thing I expected to go was his finishing and there have been signs of it in the last season or so. Like a boxer with a good punch, I’d have expected him to be lethal well into his 30s.
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Has a full back in this system been anything but streaky?

It's an impossible task and you get blamed for not being at the back post when the other side puts the ball there.
 
Legohamster said:
Has a full back in this system been anything but streaky?

It's an impossible task and you get blamed for not being at the back post when the other side puts the ball there.
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Udogie was top class when he was first here and due to the tactics he has looked a lot less effective, he almost looks as he is not sure what he is supposed to be doing.
 
Yiddo said:
Udogie was top class when he was first here and due to the tactics he has looked a lot less effective, he almost looks as he is not sure what he is supposed to be doing.
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A lot of players come to the PL and look good to start with because they are an unknown quantity, but in this league your weaknesses get figured out. He is young and I'd expect him to become a very good player, so not being too down on him but he has not been good for some time now and I don't think it's just because of Ange - young players simply have fluctuations of form and anytime example of people overhyping him when he is nowhere near consistent enough yet which is natural of a player his age....
 
harr1984 said:
Yes, Romero was an ever reliable defender pre Ange not doing anything stupid as was Porro. Kulu can still manage to show his quality, Spence can waltz into the side and show what a proper full back looks like. But of course the rest of the players are great, just big bad Ange that's making them look average. Why was Maddison not wanted by anyone better before he came to us and seldom gets picked for England? Son has been on the decline for two years. No doubt Ange is partly at fault and you're absolutely right setup is important. But as a collective our players are they type that are consistently inconsistent, for a number of reasons ranging from being young players to just not being that good.

At the same time it as the setup not being right it can be true that we don't have as good a players as we like to think, and people time after time just pile in on the manager because of their inflated expectations. Managers of whom leave Spurs to prove they are absolutely fine managers and it wouldn't surprise me to see Ange do the same.....
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Whatever you think of the players the squad is much better than 15th and being behind Everton. At the minimum it's a top half squad. Not reaching that is down to the manager.
 
DubSpur said:
You laid most of the blame at the players feet.
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Nope, my original post was that a lot of the players are overrated by a lot on here - that's not blaming the players more than the manager at all. Both can be true, I don't think our squad is as good as some like to think. I also don't think we are where we should be and at the end of the day regardless of all the issues that falls on Ange....
 
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