Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Mikey10]

Istanbul mayor arrested days before likely presidential nomination

Key rival of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan detained a day after university invalidated his diploma, in move seen as politically motivated

www.theguardian.com

Erdogan getting rid of potential opposition candidates. Transport in Istanbul shut down to prevent mass gatherings. He still has to change the constitution to be allowed to run again, but I'm sure he'll find a way.

And we all know who’s a big admirer of him.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I do think there is a "benefits trap" in this country in that, once you've been assessed to be entitled to benefits; i think its very hard to get off them. I think my brother in law's ex is a really good case in point. She has housing benefit, child benefit, universal credit and all together that's equating to almost £3,000 a month in benefits. Shes in a new build 3-bed semi owned by a housing association on a new build estate that only got planning permission based on the developer building a % of properties for social housing. Why would you work when you can get more than twice the money you'd likely get from working and a far better house in a better area than if you were having to find a private rental or buy yourself a house?

It gets to the point where I'd tell people that don't do well at school and can't rectify it by learning a trade or starting their own business to not get a job at all , because if they do, they knacker their claim for benefits.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I do think there is a "benefits trap" in this country in that, once you've been assessed to be entitled to benefits; i think its very hard to get off them. I think my brother in law's ex is a really good case in point. She has housing benefit, child benefit, universal credit and all together that's equating to almost £3,000 a month in benefits. Shes in a new build 3-bed semi owned by a housing association on a new build estate that only got planning permission based on the developer building a % of properties for social housing. Why would you work when you can get more than twice the money you'd likely get from working and a far better house in a better area than if you were having to find a private rental or buy yourself a house?

It gets to the point where I'd tell people that don't do well at school and can't rectify it by learning a trade or starting their own business to not get a job at all , because if they do, they knacker their claim for benefits.

It's the fallout from break-ups...I see she is in receipt of child benefits...how many kids does she have? Without knowing the details of her situation...If she is a good mother I'd rather she take the route she is now...and hopefully progress away from benefit dependence as as the kids get older.

Hopefully she's receiving maintenance payments.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

It's the fallout from break-ups...I see she is in receipt of child benefits...how many kids does she have? Without knowing the details of her situation...If she is a good mother I'd rather she take the route she is now...and hopefully progress away from benefit dependence as as the kids get older.

Hopefully she's receiving maintenance payments.

She doesn't receive maintenance payments no because if she did she wouldn't be entitled to the benefits she is on so she's actually told my brother in law she doesn't want anything from him. Which kind of reinforces the entire problem where the money the government is willing to dish out unconditionally is more than a father working full time as a mechanic can provide for his own kids. They've got two kids together.

 

[Grays_1890]

I do think there is a "benefits trap" in this country in that, once you've been assessed to be entitled to benefits; i think its very hard to get off them. I think my brother in law's ex is a really good case in point. She has housing benefit, child benefit, universal credit and all together that's equating to almost £3,000 a month in benefits. Shes in a new build 3-bed semi owned by a housing association on a new build estate that only got planning permission based on the developer building a % of properties for social housing. Why would you work when you can get more than twice the money you'd likely get from working and a far better house in a better area than if you were having to find a private rental or buy yourself a house?

It gets to the point where I'd tell people that don't do well at school and can't rectify it by learning a trade or starting their own business to not get a job at all , because if they do, they knacker their claim for benefits.

Also where is the line, I speak to people who have ADHD or mental health issues who say "It does not define me" so what do you do? Tell them it does and tell them they are not capable of working? It works all ways IMO, so has to be based on per person circumstances rather than a blanket, which in fairness seems what they are trying to do with the points system

 

[Craig_J]

I do think there is a "benefits trap" in this country in that, once you've been assessed to be entitled to benefits; i think its very hard to get off them. I think my brother in law's ex is a really good case in point. She has housing benefit, child benefit, universal credit and all together that's equating to almost £3,000 a month in benefits. Shes in a new build 3-bed semi owned by a housing association on a new build estate that only got planning permission based on the developer building a % of properties for social housing. Why would you work when you can get more than twice the money you'd likely get from working and a far better house in a better area than if you were having to find a private rental or buy yourself a house?

It gets to the point where I'd tell people that don't do well at school and can't rectify it by learning a trade or starting their own business to not get a job at all , because if they do, they knacker their claim for benefits.

All of that is completely open to individual interpretation and phrasing

Instead of saying why is it some people are able to get a better life than renting privately and working… ask instead why work does not afford a standard of living enough.. and private renting is so unaffordable- that people accept living on the breadline (one which doesn’t even pay the bare minimum) as opposed to taking on the world

Surely the flaws are that a naive job with no qualifications or work experience just doesn’t pay enough to make it worth more than a bare state issued minimum?

 

[Craig_J]

I think it is interesting when people float the idea that people should receive less and not that work should pay more


It’s like the sugar tax. Why not use that money to subside healthy foods - rather than just making unhealthy foods cost more? Maybe making the healthy foods more affordable could tackle it

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

All of that is completely open to individual interpretation and phrasing

Instead of saying why is it some people are able to get a better life than renting privately and working… ask instead why work does not afford a standard of living enough.. and private renting is so unaffordable- that people accept living on the breadline (one which doesn’t even pay the bare minimum) as opposed to taking on the world

Surely the flaws are that a naive job with no qualifications or work experience just doesn’t pay enough to make it worth more than a bare state issued minimum?

It's about the reality of the entire economy.

A small/medium business, which make up the majority of employers in this country, can only charge for their products what people are willing or can afford to pay. Therefore they can only afford to pay staff up to a certain level after which the business becomes unviable.

When people moan that wages are too low, and that the minimum wage needs to be higher, they tend to frame this in the context of big corporations and fat-cat owners when as I've said this really only represents around 5% of employment in this country. And most of those large corporations pay over the minimum wage for their entry level jobs anyway.

The other factor for wages for entry level jobs in respect of large corporations is that the international job market generates competition in that, for a large corporation to have these jobs in the UK, it has to make financial sense for them to do so, otherwise may as well offshore or outsource the operations.

So while I don't necessarily disagree with your problem statement it kind of is what it is to an extent and therefore when the government says the number of people out of work is too high and it needs to get more into work to grow the economy their only real option is to cut benefits as they've already been hitting employers with extra costs that is leading to unemployment creeping upwards.

Saying that, part of me does wonder whether the overall "problem" is one the government has chosen to create for themselves. Uk unemployment rate still very low compared to peer states at 4.4%. So while there is a benefits trap there are not huge numbers of people that fall into it in the grand scheme of things and the reality IMO for advanced "western" economies is that they've peaked in terms of growth and can't really grow much more, hence we've had sluggish "growth" across the board in Europe, Japan etc for a good while.

So governments need to find better ways of improving living standards and govt spending and investment other than via "growth"

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I think it is interesting when people float the idea that people should receive less and not that work should pay more


It’s like the sugar tax. Why not use that money to subside healthy foods - rather than just making unhealthy foods cost more? Maybe making the healthy foods more affordable could tackle it

Problem is you're fighting a hard battle against the reality that it is far easier and cheaper to make a s*** tonne of sugary s*** than grow and distribute a load offruit, vegetables or sustainably catch/farm high quality meat and fish. The costs of traditional, organic food production are just massively higher

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

She doesn't receive maintenance payments no because if she did she wouldn't be entitled to the benefits she is on so she's actually told my brother in law she doesn't want anything from him. Which kind of reinforces the entire problem where the money the government is willing to dish out unconditionally is more than a father working full time as a mechanic can provide for his own kids. They've got two kids together.

To clarify I did mean child maintenance payments, and my understanding is they didn't/dont effect any benefits?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Fascist labour bastards cutting benefits.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

To clarify I did mean child maintenance payments, and my understanding is they didn't/dont effect any benefits?

Of course they affect benefits. If you split up from your millionaire husband who agrees to pay you £250k a year child maintenance you're still getting benefits?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Of course they affect benefits. If you split up from your millionaire husband who agrees to pay you £250k a year child maintenance you're still getting benefits?

No... because applying for benefits wouldn't even be on your mind.

Let's keep it to the original example you posted. Google it and come back with a response.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I believe the problem is the "welfare state" was set up to support people without jobs who wanted to provide for their families through work and give everyone access to health care. At the time the country had come through a terrible war and could not foresee a future where our manufacturing industry would disappear and mass immigration. We thought we could afford it by all pulling together. There probably is enough money in the country if everyone contributed fairly but that's not the case and we are now in a situation where the majority of the population will have to face a decline in their living standards. There are no moderate political parties that want to tell the electorate that and the opportunist will uses this to push extreme views. I fear for the future of my family as this modern world looks far bleaker that the post war one I grew up in.

 

[monkeybarry]

I think it is interesting when people float the idea that people should receive less and not that work should pay more


It’s like the sugar tax. Why not use that money to subside healthy foods - rather than just making unhealthy foods cost more? Maybe making the healthy foods more affordable could tackle it

I'd love to see the data behind this benefit cut.

I'm not sure if it's shortsighted or not.
The benefits bill has increased massively.
But why?

It is a generation that are more acutely aware of mental health and more likely to seek medical diagnosis? And if so, how does that link to the job market? Are these people focused on limitations (and therefore less likely to work) or talents. Is the economy set up to allow neurodiverse people to operate within it?
IE is it the social attitude or the market creating the barrier?

What are the point of a diagnosis? Should they be a binary can/can't work? Or should it be more focused to how people can work?

Is the economy we have created appropriate for the people we have? (I'd say no - mainly because we marginalized (partly through lack of understanding) neurodiversity throughout the industrial revolution and the tech revolution).

With that in mind, how we position "support" is a hard question. It's support on how to live in a society not set up for an individual.
That society will, and is, changing hugely now we understand neurodiversity more.
It'll still take decades.

I'm left with a curiousity.
I was diagnosed with Autism (Asperger's) at 41.
If I had been identified at school or in my 20s,, I actually think a lot more barriers would have put in my place - those barriers would have actually been the support.
I'm fairly certain I'd be less independent in my mindset. I'm certain I'd earn less and not have "as good" of a job.
Which is a weird conclusion to come to. And it begs the question - where the struggles I've experienced (whilst undiagnosed in a neuro typical world) worth it? Could I have coped if I'd been directed down a different path?

I have no definite answers to those questions.
And I think a lot of people will experience some flavour of what I've described.
For those starting their career journeys their question must be a very very confusing one. They have choice. Choice driven by compassion.
It's such a weird paradox.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

No... because applying for benefits wouldn't even be on your mind.

Let's keep it to the original example you posted. Google it and come back with a response.

Do you know what? I want to thank you for making me properly looking into the universal credit system and criteria and f*** me. I had a preconceived notion that our benefits system was totally f***ed but nothing has prepared me for the absolute sh**show you've made me discover:
- So you want to become a single mum and still receive maintenance from your child's dad? No problem, have a sh** tonne of money.
- Child's dad earn and give you a sh** load? Doesn't matter, it won't affect your benefits.
- Want to move in with a new partner and give your kids a stable family environment and regular positive male role model? Woah woah woah, you can't do that sweetheart, we'll be stopping your benefits, so best rethink that.

I mean honestly the thing is so so f***ing broken and overengineered. I have ranted on here about the fact that we are not entitled to child benefit because I earn too much and it goes on what a single person in the household earns so you can get a situation where someone earns £80K a year = no child benefit even though their partner doesn't work against a couple that both earn £60K a year (so £120K combined income) = entitled to full benefit with no deduction.

I should hasten to add that the reason I am considered to earn over £80K a year is down to the fact i have a company car and the way company cars are taxed are that the car's full retail list price gets put on your annual p11d and you get taxed annually on that figure, even though there's no way they paid the retail list price for the car and I get the car for 3 years. So I'm not receiving £40K worth of benefits every year.

Honestly our tax and benefits systems are such a s***show and governments just tinker around the edges like they're doing with the current "oh let's get a few more into work and save a tiny bit of money by taking money off disabled people" rather than tackling the overall mess that the system is in.

Honestly when you actually look into this s*** it makes your blood boil and governments just get away with it as most people just can't be a***d

 

[Gutter Boy]

Fascist labour bastards cutting benefits.

Neo-liberal, not fascists. Fascists tend to grow the state.

 

[thfcsteff]

I believe the problem is the "welfare state" was set up to support people without jobs who wanted to provide for their families through work and give everyone access to health care. At the time the country had come through a terrible war and could not foresee a future where our manufacturing industry would disappear and mass immigration. We thought we could afford it by all pulling together. There probably is enough money in the country if everyone contributed fairly but that's not the case and we are now in a situation where the majority of the population will have to face a decline in their living standards. There are no moderate political parties that want to tell the electorate that and the opportunist will uses this to push extreme views. I fear for the future of my family as this modern world looks far bleaker that the post war one I grew up in.

Absolutely.

 

[Craig_J]

I'd love to see the data behind this benefit cut.

I'm not sure if it's shortsighted or not.
The benefits bill has increased massively.
But why?

It is a generation that are more acutely aware of mental health and more likely to seek medical diagnosis? And if so, how does that link to the job market? Are these people focused on limitations (and therefore less likely to work) or talents. Is the economy set up to allow neurodiverse people to operate within it?
IE is it the social attitude or the market creating the barrier?

What are the point of a diagnosis? Should they be a binary can/can't work? Or should it be more focused to how people can work?

Is the economy we have created appropriate for the people we have? (I'd say no - mainly because we marginalized (partly through lack of understanding) neurodiversity throughout the industrial revolution and the tech revolution).

With that in mind, how we position "support" is a hard question. It's support on how to live in a society not set up for an individual.
That society will, and is, changing hugely now we understand neurodiversity more.
It'll still take decades.

I'm left with a curiousity.
I was diagnosed with Autism (Asperger's) at 41.
If I had been identified at school or in my 20s,, I actually think a lot more barriers would have put in my place - those barriers would have actually been the support.
I'm fairly certain I'd be less independent in my mindset. I'm certain I'd earn less and not have "as good" of a job.
Which is a weird conclusion to come to. And it begs the question - where the struggles I've experienced (whilst undiagnosed in a neuro typical world) worth it? Could I have coped if I'd been directed down a different path?

I have no definite answers to those questions.
And I think a lot of people will experience some flavour of what I've described.
For those starting their career journeys their question must be a very very confusing one. They have choice. Choice driven by compassion.
It's such a weird paradox.

I’m doing a master’s dissertation on the welfare state as of now. So I will report back to you!

Me myself I have ADHD and dyspraxia. I wasn’t diagnosed with dyspraxia till 5 years ago and ADHD last year

The ADHD medication helps me concentrate more for doing my stuff but I have found I look very spacey and disorganised on it. Which has got me wondering if I could have asbergers myself.

I have asked close friends who don’t think I do but I dunno!

 

[thfcsteff]

I'd love to see the data behind this benefit cut.

I'm not sure if it's shortsighted or not.
The benefits bill has increased massively.
But why?

It is a generation that are more acutely aware of mental health and more likely to seek medical diagnosis? And if so, how does that link to the job market? Are these people focused on limitations (and therefore less likely to work) or talents. Is the economy set up to allow neurodiverse people to operate within it?
IE is it the social attitude or the market creating the barrier?

What are the point of a diagnosis? Should they be a binary can/can't work? Or should it be more focused to how people can work?

Is the economy we have created appropriate for the people we have? (I'd say no - mainly because we marginalized (partly through lack of understanding) neurodiversity throughout the industrial revolution and the tech revolution).

With that in mind, how we position "support" is a hard question. It's support on how to live in a society not set up for an individual.
That society will, and is, changing hugely now we understand neurodiversity more.
It'll still take decades.

I'm left with a curiousity.
I was diagnosed with Autism (Asperger's) at 41.
If I had been identified at school or in my 20s,, I actually think a lot more barriers would have put in my place - those barriers would have actually been the support.
I'm fairly certain I'd be less independent in my mindset. I'm certain I'd earn less and not have "as good" of a job.
Which is a weird conclusion to come to. And it begs the question - where the struggles I've experienced (whilst undiagnosed in a neuro typical world) worth it? Could I have coped if I'd been directed down a different path?

I have no definite answers to those questions.
And I think a lot of people will experience some flavour of what I've described.
For those starting their career journeys their question must be a very very confusing one. They have choice. Choice driven by compassion.
It's such a weird paradox.

A really thought-provoking piece and thank you for sharing your experiences and diagnosis. My daughter was diagnosed with BPD and ADHD. Thanks to a of therapy for her, meds, and DBT for us as a family, she can somewhat make her way with a full tool-kit to take on the challenges which present daily. I agree that whilst things are much better in terms of understanding -and having empathy for- the struggles neurodivergency can bring to all aspects of daily life, we are indeed still a long way away. I have always been very sure to tell her she does not need to change her personality, she simply needs to find ways of making it harmonise the frequencies she encounters outside her own immediate environment. Again, thanks to you and @Craig_J for your thoughtful words...