Ange in or out?

[Raziel]

Dele got more goals and assists in the league in Jose's season than he had in the season before.

All of the goals came after the manager change.

short term bump ..

I'm not interested in the "who's fault" but the 3 seasons of "almost" burnt a few players along the way, by the end of that Poch into Jose era, Dele, Toby, Eriksen, even Lloris, had all lost something, love of game, motivation, just time catching up, whatever ..

 

[glasgowspur]

I will give Mourinho the covid era, obviously not ideal and could well have been different without it (albeit he might've stunk the place out faster with fans around every week) but why does everybody conveniently ignore the fact that he intimated quite clearly to Levy that he could win with 'that same squad'?

The biggest red flag about hiring Jose was the fact that he thought he could win with that squad.
That squad was done, not just as a team but a good few of them as individuals.
We could all see it, how couldn't the special one.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

The biggest red flag about hiring Jose was the fact that he thought he could win with that squad.
That squad was done, not just as a team but a good few of them as individuals.
We could all see it, how couldn't the special one.

It's not necessarily difficult to see how someone that isn't a devotee of the club and who watched a few games a season tops wouldn't necessarily have the same opinion as those fans that watched us week in week out, who could see the month by month decline in some players. The mistake didn't lie with Mourinho IMO, but with Levy in the board in going with "I've watched you a few times and trust me: you don't need s big rebuild" over "I see these players week in, week out, and we need a painful rebuild.

 

[glasgowspur]

short term bump ..

I'm not interested in the "who's fault" but the 3 seasons of "almost" burnt a few players along the way, by the end of that Poch into Jose era, Dele, Toby, Eriksen, even Lloris, had all lost something, love of game, motivation, just time catching up, whatever ..

Along with Wanyama, Dembele and rose all being perma crocked and I think son was getting to the national service limit which must have been playing on his mind.
That squad was done.

 

[Muttley]

It is. Defiantly so.
You think we plateau'd in 2017? Wow, I don't know where to go with that one...

What's funny is that I'm shocked that you seem shocked about the 2017 comment. I would think that most fans would only talk about 2 dates for the plateau. The 86 point highest league finish (16/17) or the CL final (May 19). For me, if you put that 16/17 team in the CL final then they have a much better chance of winning it.

Prime Wanyama - pre-injury.
Almost prime Walker - pre City.
Dele - pre all the soft tissue injuries.
Toby - pre that horrible 2018 injury where he never recovered that x-factor (and pace)
Danny Rose - pre injuries and public declaration of his mental health / depression.
Winksy - pre-injury, the best closing sub we had under Poch.
The tactics - the ability to switch seamlessly between the 2 formations. We smashed teams at the end of the 16/17 season.

Out of interest, when was your plateau out of the two, or are you thinking even somewhere else in recent times?

 

[Robspur12]

I'll add this as a closer. I watched the clips of our 'supporters' at Fulham, berating Ange and going off at Tel. I have n o time for it whatsoever, and frankly, given the bollox Postecoglu has been facing all season, I found hios reaction absolutely acceptable and (if anything) mellow.

I can’t agree with this at all Steff. If it was one isolated incident, I could overlook it but he has had a number of these altercations with supporters this season. Part of your job as a football manager is to shrug your shoulders at comments from supporters, lead your players by example. If emergency services workers can take the abuse thrown at them by some punters and still maintain their professionalism (and I have seen that many times), Ange should be able to show more self restraint; he acts like a fudging child. And in fairness, he has received far more backing and patience from supporters than other managers, so he really has nothing to complain about.

 

[monkeybarry]

Don't tell me. On Joe Lewis's superyacht in the Caribbean.

Burger King, Stansted

 

[thfcsteff]

short term bump ..

I'm not interested in the "who's fault" but the 3 seasons of "almost" burnt a few players along the way, by the end of that Poch into Jose era, Dele, Toby, Eriksen, even Lloris, had all lost something, love of game, motivation, just time catching up, whatever ..

Remember when Poch spoke of a 'painful rebuild' as the 2018/19 season was starting? Remember, he'd tried to move Toby before that. When he saw Eriksen was not going to sign another deal, he wanted to sell him...

 

[thfcsteff]

I can’t agree with this at all Steff. If it was one isolated incident, I could overlook it but he has had a number of these altercations with supporters this season. Part of your job as a football manager is to shrug your shoulders at comments from supporters, lead your players by example. If emergency services workers can take the abuse thrown at them by some punters and still maintain their professionalism (and I have seen that many times), Ange should be able to show more self restraint; he acts like a fudging child. And in fairness, he has received far more backing and patience from supporters than other managers, so he really has nothing to complain about.

Got it. All good.

I'd love (I mean it, genuinely) to hear examples. IF you're speaking about the police, I think the stick they take is absolutely unwarranted in the same way. Anyone abusing emergency services? The same. Where your comparison differs for me is in the fact that (hopefully) individuals in those fields are not subject to blanket abuse online and offline for sustained periods of time.

There again, we are in disagreement. I am one of those who felt Cantona was justified in trying to kick that idiot at Palace, and I deeply sympathised with Dier when he went into the stands.

I don't judge decent people who are unable to control their emotions in the face of heinous and cowardly abuse, I judge (and blame) the abusers. And frankly, if more people did that, perhaps these fu-king toss-ers wouldn't feel so empowered!

 

[Welshspur60]

Hard to argue against that having seen how he went in the seasons after but the first half of 18/19 season Dele was getting some really good reviews whilst playing in a deeper role (check his thread on here around that time) the whole team seemed to fall off a cliff the second half of that season - probably though a combination of Dembele/Wanyamas prolonged absence in the middle of the pitch, culmination of 3 windows without an incoming transfer and the majority of our starting XI having gone deep in the previous summers Euros (?) - things could have changed had we taken a different path to correcting our direction, but it's certainly not a certainly

Having Winks and Sissoko in midfield didnt help.

 

[RigorMortis]

I think that the reasons for the issues might not sit entirely with the manager. And I'm disappointed at the lack of rational thinking at times on here at the moment.

of course it doesn’t sit entirely with him, does a lot of the blame lie with him given the brickshow we have seen after those first ten games, absolutely

 

[thfcsteff]

What's funny is that I'm shocked that you seem shocked about the 2017 comment. I would think that most fans would only talk about 2 dates for the plateau. The 86 point highest league finish (16/17) or the CL final (May 19). For me, if you put that 16/17 team in the CL final then they have a much better chance of winning it.

Prime Wanyama - pre-injury.
Almost prime Walker - pre City.
Dele - pre all the soft tissue injuries.
Toby - pre that horrible 2018 injury where he never recovered that x-factor (and pace)
Danny Rose - pre injuries and public declaration of his mental health / depression.
Winksy - pre-injury, the best closing sub we had under Poch.
The tactics - the ability to switch seamlessly between the 2 formations. We smashed teams at the end of the 16/17 season.

Out of interest, when was your plateau out of the two, or are you thinking even somewhere else in recent times?

Of course the 2016/17 team would've done better. Let's remember though, that 2016/17 team didn't actually manage to make it through the CL group stage that season. So in a sense, your thought is challenged by the facts.

For me, the plateau was the last 6 months of the 2018/19 season. Which is why IMO he deserved more time...

 

[thfcsteff]

Dele got more goals and assists in the league in Jose's season than he had in the season before.

All of the goals came after the manager change.

In 18/19 he missed 110 days with injuries (mostly hamstring).
In 19/20 and 20/21 he missed 70 days (hamstring and muscle injuries).

I think the truth lies in there somewhere with regards to Dele going 'off the boil' under Poch...

 

[thfcsteff]

This was the turning point.

The media got onto him about the aggression in his game etc, think he had swore while playing for England as well.

He sanitised his game and was never the same after that.

I remember Southgate gonading him about 'maturity' in public, yes.
I think what also turned Dele's career was Southgate turning him into a more 'structured and deeper' player so as he could get an extra attacking player into the pitch during the 2018 World Cup. He was coming off a great season with us and a wonderful relationship with Kane. Lingard played off that shoulder and Dele was pushed wider and with less freedom to play. He was still effective, but was equally criticised because most people did not see what he was doing. Then came a run of injuries which repeatedly kept him out of much of 2018/19's league season. His role in the CL campaign was pretty big IMO...

 

[harr1984]

Got it. All good.

I'd love (I mean it, genuinely) to hear examples. IF you're speaking about the police, I think the stick they take is absolutely unwarranted in the same way. Anyone abusing emergency services? The same. Where your comparison differs for me is in the fact that (hopefully) individuals in those fields are not subject to blanket abuse online and offline for sustained periods of time.

There again, we are in disagreement. I am one of those who felt Cantona was justified in trying to kick that idiot at Palace, and I deeply sympathised with Dier when he went into the stands.

I don't judge decent people who are unable to control their emotions in the face of heinous and cowardly abuse, I judge (and blame) the abusers. And frankly, if more people did that, perhaps these fu-king toss-ers wouldn't feel so empowered!

My parents would be mortified if I behaved the way some fans do abusing footballers and the staff. It's simply not a level I would ever go to and as far as I'm concerned any normal human wouldn't.

The idea that a human being should just constantly take said abuse all because they are being rewarded well financially and because they are the manager is a thought process I will never agree with. I don't see how we will ever get rid of such behaviour(of course I doubt we ever will) if the suggestion is certain levels of authority should just take it and do nothing....

 

[thfcsteff]

Hard to argue against that having seen how he went in the seasons after but the first half of 18/19 season Dele was getting some really good reviews whilst playing in a deeper role (check his thread on here around that time) the whole team seemed to fall off a cliff the second half of that season - probably though a combination of Dembele/Wanyamas prolonged absence in the middle of the pitch, culmination of 3 windows without an incoming transfer and the majority of our starting XI having gone deep in the previous summers Euros (?) - things could have changed had we taken a different path to correcting our direction, but it's certainly not a certainly

2018 was the World Cup as I remember it, and yes, we went to the semis. Wrote about Dele's somewhat compromised role in that tournament, albeit it did see him add a string to his bow for sure and leave him less effective as a goalscorer because of the deployment of his services. He subsequently had a bad run of injuries, and when we thibnk of how young he was versus the amount oif football he was playing, there's little doubt that he was probably overplayed, especially given we weren't buying players for a while there too. I agree with the rest of what you say re: Dembele/Wanyama and so on. I think it is one of life's miracles that we got to a CL Final with Winks and Sissoko both having such prominant roles in our side/squad...

 

[thfcsteff]

My parents would be mortified if I behaved the way some fans do abusing footballers and the staff. It's simply not a level I would ever go to and as far as I'm concerned any normal human wouldn't.

The idea that a human being should just constantly take said abuse all because they are being rewarded well financially and because they are the manager is a thought process I will never agree with. I don't see how we will ever get rid of such behaviour(of course I doubt we ever will) if the suggestion is certain levels of authority should just take it and do nothing....

This. All day.

 

[thfcsteff]

Having Winks and Sissoko in midfield didnt help.

i confess that I really, really got behind Sissoko because he gave his all and I knew he wasn't Hoddle! That being said, one of the cruelest ironies I have ever endured at a stadium was in Madrid when I was one of thousands singing 'Ohhhhhh Moussa Sissooooooko' just as the ref decided to give that pen against him :-(

 

[thfcsteff]

LOL - it's the club that put the players through the 40-50+ games, not the country. I look at one turning point with Dele. That was the summer of 16/17. Him and the rest of the midfielders had run marathons for Poch for multiple seasons and we got 86 points in the league, our best ever finish. Our net spending in that summer was -€10m and we bought Gazzaniga, Sanchez, Aurier, Foyth, Llorente after selling Walker, Wimmer and Bentaleb for decent money. We then bought Moura in the January for €28m to make it an impressive €18m for a CL year.

It was so obvious to me in that summer that a decline would start, and to expect those midfielders to keep going at that rate was always going to end in tears. We needed to buy DM's and AM's and reduce the burden. Wanyama was broken, Winksy broken and Dembele in and out. This isn't captain hindsight as loads of fans called it at the time. This is what happened to Dele thereafter.

18/19 Hamstring strain Jan 20, 2019 Mar 9, 2019 49 days 12 Matches
18/19 Hamstring injury Dec 24, 2018 Dec 28, 2018 5 days 1 Match
18/19 Hamstring injury Sep 28, 2018 Oct 29, 2018 32 days 8 Matches
18/19 Hamstring injury Sep 8, 2018 Sep 22, 2018 15 days 4 Matches
18/19 Muscle strain Jul 4, 2018 Jul 6, 2018 3 days -
17/18 Hamstring injury Nov 2, 2017 Nov 15, 2017 14 days 3 Matches

He somehow got through the next season, which ended up with the Russia World Cup (your point). I went to Moscow and where you are somewhat right is the burden Southgate then put on Hendo, Lingard and Dele. You had Maguire calling our left wingback, Young, into mark his man in the middle, whilst him and Stones were free men. That meant Dele had to do his own job and protect the entire left hand side with Young being AWOL. Just shocking from Southgate. If the fans could see it in the stands, why couldn't he?

So I would always be tough on the way that Jose treated Dele who could have done himself a big favour and just smashed the little narcissistic bully straight on the jaw and knocked him out. Done all of us a favour. I strongly believe that the Jose-Dele relationship was part of the reason Jose lost the dressing room and the massive decline started. You could see guys like Sonny just quit on Jose on the pitch and wait patiently until he'd left the building. Hugo dropped some very strong hints in his recent book.

However, we should be clear. It wasn't Jose who broke Dele. That was Poch, with a little bit of Southgate thrown in. It was mostly Poch, and Steve Hitchen can take some of the rap for not getting his manager reinforcements in midfield. Even when he did a year prior, it was bloody Sissoko.

With many apologies, I have made several posts which virtually mirrors yours above without having seen it until just now!!!! I'll leave mine too as record, but wanted you to know I had not seen this yetand ended up writing something which is 80% similar. My only disagreement would be on who broke him. Physically I'd say it was age versus a lot of football too fast. Mentally, I'd say it was Mourinho...

...one thing is clear. We both hold the same reverance for a player who was sensational for several seasons.

 

[Robspur12]

My parents would be mortified if I behaved the way some fans do abusing footballers and the staff. It's simply not a level I would ever go to and as far as I'm concerned any normal human wouldn't.

The idea that a human being should just constantly take said abuse all because they are being rewarded well financially and because they are the manager is a thought process I will never agree with. I don't see how we will ever get rid of such behaviour(of course I doubt we ever will) if the suggestion is certain levels of authority should just take it and do nothing....

Most decent human beings wouldn't condone abuse in any walk of life. Sadly it happens and how you react to it matters. Imagine for a second we were to agree with your's and Steff's proposition that it's ok to react to it. There would be anarchy. With respect, that is school playground stuff. It's not about how much someone is paid.

Ange seems particularly thin skinned. These examples of reacting to supporters and other members of his team ushering him away have become all too common. It's not acceptable. And to be honest he is probably making it worse because supporters love to rile the person they are abusing. If the abuse crosses the line then report the person and get them thrown out and banned.