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World Cup 2018 Group G (Belgium, Panama, Tunisia, England)

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nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
After the season he has had I think he is still one of our genuine danger men.

I think against Tunisia he just looked lost, with Young being a big culprit in why.

Rose or Delph up that side to actually feed and engage with him more and I think we'll see a better performance.
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Thing is he was frustrating in the Euros as well.

Perhaps he's a bit john barnes, where the club form doesn't transfer to internationals.

Basically when the moment comes, can you rely on him? No.

Not that I'm putting forward any alternatives..apart from H they all like to miss :)
 
DeleHarry said:
scaramanga said:
This is my biggest problem with him, he's like the opposite of Modric.

When Modric plays, he's constantly looking around him - on the ball, off the ball and especially coming to collect the ball. He knows the shape of play at all times so he knows what angle to approach the ball holder from, which way to turn, where the options will be when he does, etc. He knows when, how and where to close and when he needs to cover space. He knows whether the defenders need him to come deep or if he needs to drift into space and where that space is.

Henderson repeatedly gets every single one of those wrong because he has no awareness whatsoever and no reading of what's happening around him.
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Problem here is that you are comparing Henderson with one of the best and unique central midfielders that I've certainly seen in my lifetime.
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I was thinking Carrick vs. Hargreaves was a better comparison. Henderson is like Hargreaves, energetic with little awareness of position, so never well positioned for the pass from his defenders. Carrick was the master of getting into position to help the defender make the pass and start the transition.

dnrc said:
that winner was a really good goal.doesn't look spectacular but top class from harry.
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Yes, tap in doesn't do it justice. While being in position to capitalise on tap in chances is a huge plus for a striker, that one required a lot more.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Thing is he was frustrating in the Euros as well.

Perhaps he's a bit john barnes, where the club form doesn't transfer to internationals.

Basically when the moment comes, can you rely on him? No.

Not that I'm putting forward any alternatives..apart from H they all like to miss :)
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That was 2 years ago, since when he has developed massively.

Scored loads for City, its not like he is a poor player.

Seems unfair to judge him on 2 years ago to me.

I still think he was sold short having Young there as well, would be happy to give him tomorrows game with Rose/Delph and see if he plays better.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
That was 2 years ago, since when he has developed massively.

Scored loads for City, its not like he is a poor player.

Seems unfair to judge him on 2 years ago to me.

I still think he was sold short having Young there as well, would be happy to give him tomorrows game with Rose/Delph and see if he plays better.
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John Barnes wasn't a bad player, far from it....just rarely done it when he pulled on the England shirt.

Hope I'm wrong but I feel he's similar. Might just be a confidence thing and a big game will help him turn the corner. If the fans can lay off him.
 
Back on the topic of Henderson - I think this video shows that he did a number of good things against Tunisia, and that the idea of him having awful awareness is exaggerated. (I agree he's no Modric in that respect, just don't think he's as bad as some make out)

 
And here's the only full-match England video of Dier I could find:


I do think Dier makes a number of good passes into attacking midfielders when he has time and space on the ball. But I think he's just as unaware and conservative as Henderson when he's under any kind of pressure.

Do people see things differently to me based just on these two videos?
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Is any opinion based just on those videos even valid?
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Obviously it’s a tiny sample size of just one match each, but I think that can still be indicative of a player’s style / qualities. At the very least I find it useful / interesting to frame the discussion by watching the same specific things, otherwise it’s all a bit vague and inevitable that we all just stick with our original opinions.
 
The problem is that you have in Hendersens case 2 minutes of a match. Which only really shows the direct actions he makes, and with little context.

You (as in the general "you") then argue against my feelings on his whole performance based off of it, which despite being from the same event isnt the same as comparing apples with apples.

We then end up in a rather circular argument because of it.

Ultimately, I dont think he is anything more than average - and Ive said why. I dont think he suits the team, and Ive said why. And I didnt particularly enjoy his performance, and Ive said why.

You are free to disagree.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
The problem is that you have in Hendersens case 2 minutes of a match. Which only really shows the direct actions he makes, and with little context.

You (as in the general "you") then argue against my feelings on his whole performance based off of it, which despite being from the same event isnt the same as comparing apples with apples.

We then end up in a rather circular argument because of it.

Ultimately, I dont think he is anything more than average - and Ive said why. I dont think he suits the team, and Ive said why. And I didnt particularly enjoy his performance, and Ive said why.

You are free to disagree.
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Fair enough. I personally think these kinds of videos, whilst imperfect, are better than two people stating their different opinions and then agreeing to disagree without trying to look again at the evidence - but then I am an obsessive analytical geek, so fair enough if you disagree and don’t want to discuss it any further :D
 
Im really not trying to be funny, I hope it doesnt come over that way - its just Im not sure what else there is to be gained.

Ultimately people tend to see what they want to, and excuse what they dont.

Watching the game I acknowledged he played some good actions, but I felt his tendency to pass back all the time rather than turn, and the panic he has when being closed down, dont work for the team. He slows play, and he is sloppy.

On balance, for me, thats a negative. One I feel Dier would improve upon. (This is not to say Dier is amazing, or that Henderson is terrible).

Showing me a video that basically points out all Ive just said, while pointing yourself to a few actions that were positive (already acknowledged) doesnt really change much.
 
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