Width

[thfcsteff]

That wouldn't work in this league as well as teams are simply more set up to hold a line. Watch the MOTD highlights tonight and at one point they highlight the Sunderland defence all within 30 yards of each other around the semi circle in the area, and then a couple in front and Adam Johnson and Danny Graham at full backs. That's 8 men behind the ball and not moving toward to pressure us, just staying organised. They were not woo reuse about who was where from our side, just where they were to limit our progress

Exactly. You could have had the windiest widest wingers of wing-kind and they would've got fudge-all out of a square, 9 men behind the ball Mackem-Fat Sam fudging orgy! I thought we did it well TBH yesterday. We really miss Clinton to stretch teams in the last 15-20. Our goal difference is +20, our concessions least in the league and generally we are on the better side of life. I would love to see one more attacking option, but the truth is we will probably see a couple go in the summer/get upgraded upon at that time. Be nice if Chadli could discover some form to out pressure on the manager for selection.

 

[thfcsteff]

People said the same thing under AVB.
Width was the solution.

The problem in the first half was tempo.
Everyone took too many touches.

Poch is never gonna play with wingers.
Its not part of his pressing in numbers gameplan.
You cant press a centre half on the ball if you have two players on the touchlines.
Its a waste of time complaining about wingers with Poch.

Bang-on!!!!!!

 

[Finney Is Back]

That's a very good point, but I don't feel that Lamela, Eriksen or Chadli provide a consistent goal threat. To me, double figures i.e. 10 is their upper limit. I'd be surprised if 2 of them end up with 10 league goals apiece this season, but fingers crossed.

Last season, Chelsea (when they were good) had Costa with 20 league goals and Hazard with 14 league goals. Arsenal had Giroud with 14 league goals and Sanchez with 16 league goals. Go back to 2013/14, Liverpool had Suarez with 31 league goals and Sturridge with 21, whilst City had Aguero with 17 league goals and Yaya Toure with 20.

Kane is Batman, I think we as a team need someone to be Robin, I think it gives us more of a chance in tight games when we need a goal from somewhere. Having those goals spread around is ok, but another goal-scorer/match-winner can give us the edge in close games whereas more inconsistent goal-scorers probably won't.

All in my humble opinion

A Robbie Keane type of player alongside Kane would be the ideal here I think.... The pair of them could rotate as the number 9/10 throughout the match.

I also sometimes wonder whether we actually need to be playing Dier in home games against teams like Sunderland who just look to get everyone behind the ball. In such games could we instead start with a more progressive player such as Bentaleb?

 

[billyiddo]

A Robbie Keane type of player alongside Kane would be the ideal here I think.... The pair of them could rotate as the number 9/10 throughout the match.

I also sometimes wonder whether we actually need to be playing Dier in home games against teams like Sunderland who just look to get everyone behind the ball. In such games could we instead start with a more progressive player such as Bentaleb?

I think Carroll alongside Dembele would work in games like Saturday

 

[braineclipse]

All this talk about Eriksen not being a goal scorer does my head in.

7 goals in his first PL season for us, starting only 23 games.
10 goals in his second PL season for us, starting 37 games.
Only 4 goals so far this season, but a good second half of the season and he could still easily reach 10 league goals for the season.

All this and he's only 23 years old.

 

[parklane1]

All this talk about Eriksen not being a goal scorer does my head in.

7 goals in his first PL season for us, starting only 23 games.
10 goals in his second PL season for us, starting 37 games.
Only 4 goals so far this season, but a good second half of the season and he could still easily reach 10 league goals for the season.

All this and he's only 23 years old.

Would agree with that, I think a lot of fans do not remember that he is still only young ( probably because he has been around for a while) despite being a first team player for 6 seasons ( at Ajax and here). He really is still learning the game and he will get stronger and better.

 

[the dza]

All this talk about Eriksen not being a goal scorer does my head in.

7 goals in his first PL season for us, starting only 23 games.
10 goals in his second PL season for us, starting 37 games.
Only 4 goals so far this season, but a good second half of the season and he could still easily reach 10 league goals for the season.

All this and he's only 23 years old.

He's not a goal-scorer in the way that another forward alongside Kane would be, or a proper goal-scoring wing-forward is, that's my point. Sanchez and Walcott* would be players I'd say are goal-scorers able to operate from wide positions. Eriksen will get goals, particularly from range or free-kicks, but he is not a goal-scorer that makes forward runs, gets into the box and finishes.

*bad example as he's always crocked.

 

[braineclipse]

He's not a goal-scorer in the way that another forward alongside Kane would be, or a proper goal-scoring wing-forward is, that's my point. Sanchez and Walcott* would be players I'd say are goal-scorers able to operate from wide positions. Eriksen will get goals, particularly from range or free-kicks, but he is not a goal-scorer that makes forward runs, gets into the box and finishes.

*bad example as he's always crocked.

Care to give some not crocked, not superstar examples?

Walcott is 26 and his highest scoring season in the league he got 14 goals. From only 24 starts so that's certainly impressive enough, but still. That's his only season in double digits in the league.

Sanchez is class, but he's come into a very good Arsenal side at a very different stage of his career.

Eriksen's 10 goals in one season in the PL might end up being the highest scoring season in his career in a big league. But he's 23 so it seems likely that he'll improve on that at some point. The continued talk about him as someone not a goal scorer will continue to do my head in.

 

[the dza]

Care to give some not crocked, not superstar examples?

Walcott is 26 and his highest scoring season in the league he got 14 goals. From only 24 starts so that's certainly impressive enough, but still. That's his only season in double digits in the league.

Sanchez is class, but he's come into a very good Arsenal side at a very different stage of his career.

Eriksen's 10 goals in one season in the PL might end up being the highest scoring season in his career in a big league. But he's 23 so it seems likely that he'll improve on that at some point. The continued talk about him as someone not a goal scorer will continue to do my head in.

I think it's simpler to say he is not a natural forward player, because me saying 'goal-scorer' is confusing the issue. If he scores, it tends to be from range or a free-kick. A valuable contribution, but he is not a player with the goal potential that other wide-forwards have . He couldn't play upfront, make runs and finish chances like other wide-forwards are able to.

You couldn't push Eriksen into a more advanced position, tell him to make runs past Kane and finish...because that's not his game....because he is not a goal-scorer. If a natural forward player took the position of Eriksen or Lamela in games, that player would operate as a forward and score more goals imo.

He scores a decent amount of goals for the positions he takes up on the pitch (he plays deep a fair bit), but so did Sinisa Mihajlovic, due to his free-kick ability. But he wasn't a goal-scorer either.

 

[braineclipse]

I think it's simpler to say he is not a natural forward player, because me saying 'goal-scorer' is confusing the issue. If he scores, it tends to be from range or a free-kick. A valuable contribution, but he is not a player with the goal potential that other wide-forwards have . He couldn't play upfront, make runs and finish chances like other wide-forwards are able to.

You couldn't push Eriksen into a more advanced position, tell him to make runs past Kane and finish...because that's not his game....because he is not a goal-scorer. If a natural forward player took the position of Eriksen or Lamela in games, that player would operate as a forward and score more goals imo.

He scores a decent amount of goals for the positions he takes up on the pitch (he plays deep a fair bit), but so did Sinisa Mihajlovic, due to his free-kick ability. But he wasn't a goal-scorer either.

If only world class or superstar level players are scoring more than him from his position it seems strange to me not to classify him as a goal scorer.

I have no problems accepting your definition of what it means to be a "goal scorer" and "forward player", though it seems a bit unusual to me. Though you almost have to give a caveat to it every time by adding "though he will score goals", which seems strange. Are those goals worth less because they're from range? Did Bale's free kicks count less than his goals from bursts through the defensive line?

To me a goal scorer is someone that scores goals... If someone scores a lot of goals for a player in their position/role then they're a good goal scorer.

 

[the dza]

To me a goal scorer is someone that scores goals... If someone scores a lot of goals for a player in their position/role then they're a good goal scorer.

I think that's where we disagree. I think a goal-scorer is a player who, when in advanced positions, will get around 15 goals a season and maybe 20 in a really good year. You mention Bale, well there you go; he's a goal-scorer -- free kicks, headers and everything in between.

IMO, Eriksen's freekicks haven't been as good this season, so his goal output is lower. This is because he isn't really a goal-scorer and doesn't make up for set-piece goals in the way that goal-scorers can. Surely you understand what I'm getting at here?

I'll leave it there, it's pointless to go round and round. I agree to disagree!

 

[braineclipse]

I think that's where we disagree. I think a goal-scorer is a player who, when in advanced positions, will get around 15 goals a season and maybe 20 in a really good year. You mention Bale, well there you go; he's a goal-scorer -- free kicks, headers and everything in between.

IMO, Eriksen's freekicks haven't been as good this season, so his goal output is lower. This is because he isn't really a goal-scorer and doesn't make up for set-piece goals in the way that goal-scorers can. Surely you understand what I'm getting at here?

I'll leave it there, it's pointless to go round and round. I agree to disagree!

20 used to be a bit of a gold standard for strikers (in the league), even back when two strikers and 4-4-2 was the norm. Though it would be rare for both strikers to get that one on 20+ and one on 15+ would be phenomenal.

Now with 4-2-3-1 I really think that's very high for anyone not playing the striker role. Not many teams in world football that get 20+ goals from their attacking midfielders in that kind of system. Can barely think of anyone that get that from more than one player across the attacking midfield 3. And we're arguably looking at Alli in behind Kane as our main goal scorer in our system at the moment.

I like setting aims high though

 

[the dza]

20 used to be a bit of a gold standard for strikers (in the league), even back when two strikers and 4-4-2 was the norm. Though it would be rare for both strikers to get that one on 20+ and one on 15+ would be phenomenal.

Now with 4-2-3-1 I really think that's very high for anyone not playing the striker role. Not many teams in world football that get 20+ goals from their attacking midfielders in that kind of system. Can barely think of anyone that get that from more than one player across the attacking midfield 3. And we're arguably looking at Alli in behind Kane as our main goal scorer in our system at the moment.

I like setting aims high though

Yeah, 20 is very high for league goals only. That'd be like Lampard or Yaya's best goalscoring seasons. Probably around 15 in the league and pushing 20 in all comps is more realistic.

Rodriguez at Sothampton (and Burnley in the Championship) was pretty good, though might be phucked from injury now. Griezmann seems to be a player that can score a lot from wide and central, though he may be putting himself in the superstar category now. Hazard got 14 two years running at Chelsea (17 and 19 in all comps) and bagged quite a few in his last season at Lille (20 in the league). GHod knows what has happened to their whole team this season, though we can sit back and enjoy it haha. Sanchez at the goons can hit those kind of numbers.

I think we need that kind of player, who can transition from wide to upfront as the game necessitates, and get those extra goals as a result. It'd be nice if we get the black box out and pluck one from league one again! Though I do think Alli has a lot of potential, as said earlier in the thread, his movement and finishing is good and will likely improve.

 

[the dza]

Oh, I apologise for hijacking this thread. Go back to talking about WIDTH now!!

 

[Bullet]

Regarding width I was thinking about Rose and Trippier... Trippier hugs the touchline whereas Rose drifts infield a bit much for me. I concede that it was Rose's run into the box which won us the penalty, he is more of a goal threat because he comes inside more, but it annoys me when he is 25 yards off the touchline and we have nobody wide left.

Anyway I looked on Squawka at the Sunlun game for Rose. You can click Rose and Events and then change from a heatmap to squares/regions/flanks... which shows Rose is on the flank 74% of the time and Trippier is on the flank 91% of the time.

Fascinating huh? But it does show that Rose drifts infield a hell of a lot, given we already have Eriksen Alli Lamela Kane and Dembele in the middle, that is plenty really.

Rose should stay wide until the last moment, not too early.

http://epl.squawka.com/english-barclays-premier-league/16-01-2016/spurs-vs-sunderland/matches

 

[Coys300]

I really do miss some of the typical wing-play we used to have at Spurs. It now has to come from the full-backs, but they don't have the flair that real wingers often show.

 

[Cochise]

You say that, but Trippier had a couple of liitle tricks in his locker against Sunderland and Rose was originally a winger. Personally I have no problem with Rose's game as it works well for him more often than not. If he was constantly on the overlap he would be easier to predict. One run in four going in field is enough to keep the defenders and midfielders of the opposition on their toe's. It shows because he has scored goals and won us penalties doing just that.

I have no problems with the current style. The buildup to the first goal was a prime example of how it should work, with Kane starting off dropping really deep and Alli drifting in from the right to form a quick passing combination with Kane and Eriksen (he was deployed centrally at the restart). Lamela had also held his width on the left and was moving into the penalty box when Kane was shooting at goal.

My one gripe is that I think Lamela or Eriksen needs to be switched out for a more efficient scorer. In Europe Lamela does it, but in the league he's still not being ruthless enough. Alli too could be included with the chance he had early on against Sunderland as an example, but given his age etc I'm happy to give him a pass.

 

[Pandy]

If only world class or superstar level players are scoring more than him from his position it seems strange to me not to classify him as a goal scorer.

I have no problems accepting your definition of what it means to be a "goal scorer" and "forward player", though it seems a bit unusual to me. Though you almost have to give a caveat to it every time by adding "though he will score goals", which seems strange. Are those goals worth less because they're from range? Did Bale's free kicks count less than his goals from bursts through the defensive line?

To me a goal scorer is someone that scores goals... If someone scores a lot of goals for a player in their position/role then they're a good goal scorer.

To me, the issue is not the amount of goals Eriksen scores, but the type. He is vital to our team for many reasons, and his potency from free-kicks and to a lesser extent long-range shots should not be understated. He does not score those more typical 'goal-scorers goals' though. The ones picked up from sniffing around the box and turning the ball in with whatever body part does the job.

Chadli was great at this last year, but we haven't had anyone doing this on a consistent basis this season to compliment the other types of goals we are scoring/chances we are creating from corners (Alder and co), freekicks (Eriksen), long-shots (Eriksen, Kane).

I mean obviously Kane scores these types of goals, but we could do with a wide forward chipping in consistently too - be it a rejuvenated Chadli, an incoming Berahino, a more ruthless Lamela - whoever.

Wherever it may come from, it is that sort of addition which will make our strike force more balanced, and more potent against the pathetic defensive displays that we will become very used to as the season wears on.

 

[SUIYHA]

I've been banging this drum for years now:

http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/community/threads/the-winger-thread.6478/

http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/community/threads/the-winger-thread-2015-edition.7700/

Every big team has at least one attacking player that drifts out wide and has top class dribbling ability to get past defenders and pace to burn. We lack this in our squad. That doesn't necessarily mean the player needs to hug the touchline, but they do need to have a higher level of ball control and technical skill than our players have. Eriksen isn't fast enough to play this role, whereas Lamela still gives the ball away too much when attempting dribbles even though he's improved massively in this regard. I hoped that we'd addressed the problem when we brought in Son and N'Jie, but both have spent a lot of time injured and Son has struggled to win his place back in the side - even so, our average goal output is significantly higher when he starts than when he doesn't.

Our wide play is much better than it was in the previous two seasons, as Eriksen is playing out wide and Lamela has stepped up his game, which has also allowed us to dominate the middle more with Alli and Dembele. But I'd still like to see Son starting more, or another genuinely top class wide forward player brought into the side if he can't reach the level we hope of him. I'm sure now someone will say Pritchard is going to be that player. I like your optimism but I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Cochise]

I'm inclined to agree with you. The three players behind Kane are expected to be interchangeable in their roles and competent in all of them. I think in an ideal world, both of our wide players would have the ability to be a combination of Eriksen and Hazard. They would be as happy to drop deep or come inside and combine with the central midfielders as they were to sit out wide or play on the shoulder of the last defender. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how many of those types of player are out there nor how much they would cost. I think that our style would morph a little if we were in fact to find that player.

Chadli is probably the closest player we have in that regard, but I think our play detiorates with him in the side because he isn't as good at the one touch work in the midddle. Were Lamela a little bit quicker and a little more decisive in front of goal, we wouldn't be noticing it as badly.