Olle73
Jason Dozzell
Agree. The opposite would have been more alarming...
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Why are we struggling to score this season?
- Thread starter Spur of the moment
- Start date
Agree. The opposite would have been more alarming...
Did the OP really just say he wonders why we don't pick apart a team like Barca does? ... this board some fudging days ..
For what it's worth Barca scored 4 against Citi (in what was their biggest game of season), we should have had 3 (penalty) and easily could have matched the 4 scoreline.
Spurs does not have problems scoring, GF numbers this season, and last 2 back that up (fact not speculation), we typically are in top 4 clubs with GF, have a striker win Golden Boot or be close, and have 2 of the top scoring midfielders in the league.
Our issue, if you want to nitpick is conversion, you could ask why our conversion rate is not higher and that be legitimate, and the answer to that is simple (imo), we only have one established (in this league) CF.
For what it's worth Barca scored 4 against Citi (in what was their biggest game of season), we should have had 3 (penalty) and easily could have matched the 4 scoreline.
Spurs does not have problems scoring, GF numbers this season, and last 2 back that up (fact not speculation), we typically are in top 4 clubs with GF, have a striker win Golden Boot or be close, and have 2 of the top scoring midfielders in the league.
Our issue, if you want to nitpick is conversion, you could ask why our conversion rate is not higher and that be legitimate, and the answer to that is simple (imo), we only have one established (in this league) CF.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
glasgowspur
Luka Modric
I didn't watch it but did barca not miss a pen as well?
I agree with the rest and not criticising your post
Spur of the moment
Frederic Kanoute
Not quite!
Raziel your posts are usually right on the button but this time it feels like you've gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick my friend. Maybe re-read my post say tomorrow morning?
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
That's just not true, though. Plenty of defenders (I think Darmian was the most recent one) have spoken about how continental styles of defending are far harder to master and overcome than the frenetic PL style. To use a military analogy, continental defenders usually trade space for time, choosing their moments to intervene, stay compact, close down the opposition or stand off respectively. It's a more tactical approach that sometimes allows for relative defensive comfort even when defending on the eighteen-yard line. The Premier League has managers who try to get their teams playing this way, of course, but more often what you see is more indiscipline, a tendency to rush in when it isn't absolutely necessary, a more frenetic style of game management that adopts the strategy of not giving the opposition an inch when they enter your half/final third/penalty box, because the opposition are going to try and brute force their way towards your goal and you might as well use the same methods to keep them away. Action begets reaction in that sense. It's oversimplifying the differences between the systems enormously, of course, but I feel like that description really does cover the differences between Prem and continental styles of defending.
That's what leads to blowouts like yesterday, because Messi, Neymar and Suarez are used to playing against teams with a good deal more defensive nous than City showed - and, once they overcame City's initial pressure, it was easy for them to pick apart City's defense because spaces exist (due to players moving out of them to close down/move forward more aggressively and frequently) that they can easily exploit. In that regard, the quality of players in the PL versus La Liga (on average, the Prem undoubtedly has better players across the league) might actually hinder moves towards continental defending, because teams in La Liga and elsewhere have to compensate for a (relative) lack of skill or ability by being tactically astute, while Prem players can (on average) rely on their ability to bail them out of the trickier situations, at least domestically.
It's also one of the reasons why I wouldn't compare our finishing to Barca's - not only are we much younger on average than they are, and not only are our front four possibly just less skilled than MSN, but our players generally have to play in an already frenetic league, at an *especially* frenetic pace due to our style of play. The pace of the game means that they have both less energy to expend when on the ball (due to their constant press when off it and the necessity of evading the oppo's closing down when on it) and less time to accurately finish when through on goal. It's a structural issue, and I'm not sure it's one that has easy solutions.
However, I'm also not sure it's an *issue*, per se - we still make and finish our fair share of chances, so I'm not sure we should be too critical.
Spur of the moment
Frederic Kanoute
Not sure I quite follow your logic! There are plenty of blowouts in La Liga, way more than in the PL I suspect. Of course you might argue that's because the top Spanish teams have cornered the world's best strikers.That's just not true, though. Plenty of defenders (I think Darmian was the most recent one) have spoken about how continental styles of defending are far harder to master and overcome than the frenetic PL style. To use a military analogy, continental defenders usually trade space for time, choosing their moments to intervene, stay compact, close down the opposition or stand off respectively. It's a more tactical approach that sometimes allows for relative defensive comfort even when defending on the eighteen-yard line. The Premier League has managers who try to get their teams playing this way, of course, but more often what you see is more indiscipline, a tendency to rush in when it isn't absolutely necessary, a more frenetic style of game management that adopts the strategy of not giving the opposition an inch when they enter your half/final third/penalty box, because the opposition are going to try and brute force their way towards your goal and you might as well use the same methods to keep them away. Action begets reaction in that sense. It's oversimplifying the differences between the systems enormously, of course, but I feel like that description really does cover the differences between Prem and continental styles of defending.
That's what leads to blowouts like yesterday, because Messi, Neymar and Suarez are used to playing against teams with a good deal more defensive nous than City showed - and, once they overcame City's initial pressure, it was easy for them to pick apart City's defense because spaces exist (due to players moving out of them to close down/move forward more aggressively and frequently) that they can easily exploit. In that regard, the quality of players in the PL versus La Liga (on average, the Prem undoubtedly has better players across the league) might actually hinder moves towards continental defending, because teams in La Liga and elsewhere have to compensate for a (relative) lack of skill or ability by being tactically astute, while Prem players can (on average) rely on their ability to bail them out of the trickier situations, at least domestically.
It's also one of the reasons why I wouldn't compare our finishing to Barca's - not only are we much younger on average than they are, and not only are our front four possibly just less skilled than MSN, but our players generally have to play in an already frenetic league, at an *especially* frenetic pace due to our style of play. The pace of the game means that they have both less energy to expend when on the ball (due to their constant press when off it and the necessity of evading the oppo's closing down when on it) and less time to accurately finish when through on goal. It's a structural issue, and I'm not sure it's one that has easy solutions.
However, I'm also not sure it's an *issue*, per se - we still make and finish our fair share of chances, so I'm not sure we should be too critical.
But in a way you are sort of agreeing with me. It's the frenetic nature of the PL that leads to our strikers snatching at chances. My contention is our attackers are allowing the pressure of not scoring to get to them, leading to a vicious circle of even more snatched chances. Once they break through this psychological barrier the goals should start to flow again because confidence and belief returns and this in turn leads to greater composure in front of goal when the half-chances present themselves.
We can but hope.
nayenezgani
Jimmy Neighbour
Why do some of our fans feel constantly compelled to find something to bitch about?
90291Spur
Paul Walsh
Many psychologists feel it is lack of or improper early attachment when infants. I think it's probably because lots of people are moany gits. This current squad is exciting, dynamic, has many home-grown players and players who have been with us for years (Walker & Rose for example) who have evolved into 'triffic, top, top players. We are still the youngest squad in the league with a relatively inexperienced manager and have a great new stadium on the way. As my dearly departed Gradma used to say, 'What's not to like?'*
* Apart from Eriken bottling out of tackles, Lamela being inconsistent, selling Mason (sorry GB), Janssen not being good enough, Dier going through a slump in form, Sissoko being too expensive and crap at Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Carrol being lightweight, Wimmer being replaced as soon as Verts was fit, Dembele being injury prone, Bentaleb being sent out on loan...
Olle73
Jason Dozzell
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Small sample size.
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
I don't see the OP as bitching but just starting a debate that I am enjoying reading. Fans with opinions on a forum ? Whatever next.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
until something is perfect only criticism will drive improvement
that's why Bill Nic was so great, never satisfied, I can't remember whether it was Chivers or Greaves but one of them once scored 4 goals and all Bill wanted to talk about was the chance they wasted
asking, "how can we be better?" isn't moaning in my book
that's why Bill Nic was so great, never satisfied, I can't remember whether it was Chivers or Greaves but one of them once scored 4 goals and all Bill wanted to talk about was the chance they wasted
asking, "how can we be better?" isn't moaning in my book
Olle73
Jason Dozzell
Correct, but the criticism must be resonable and substantiated, otherwise it will only diving people mad. To criticize the club for not buying Messi (for example) is not resonable.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
indeed, but asking what we can do to get our conversion rate up is fair enough
also, the diving people are already mad, it's a high gain low risk strategy
last season Leicester and West Ham were running at about 95%, thats obviously unrealistic over the long term but it show's that a conversion rate of about 10% (where i'm guessing ours is) is still pretty woeful
Dr Rosenrosen
Ramon Vega
Some players will find anything to whinge about....
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Not sure I quite follow your logic! There are plenty of blowouts in La Liga, way more than in the PL I suspect. Of course you might argue that's because the top Spanish teams have cornered the world's best strikers.
There are plenty more blowouts in La Liga, yes, but that is because of the disparity in talent between the top teams and the rest. PL doesn't have that, but nor does it force the smaller teams to adapt to their lack of quality by being more tactically astute. In La Liga, the arms race between the top teams and the rest is self-perpetuating in the sense that Real, Barca and co. have to acquire more and more talent to overcome the increasingly complex tactical setups of teams that face them. In the PL, *all* teams acquire quality to outcompete other teams also freely acquiring quality players, and the tactical defensive side of it is relatively underplayed. Thus, when a PL team come up against a top team from La Liga, the (relative) lack of defensive tactical discipline makes for Barca players finding space more easily than they generally do in domestic games, and their quality is such that they can outcompete the best the PL has to offer on a qualitative level...taken together, that results in blowouts like on Tuesday. Not sure I'm putting that at all well, but that's what I think, for what it's worth.
But in a way you are sort of agreeing with me. It's the frenetic nature of the PL that leads to our strikers snatching at chances. My contention is our attackers are allowing the pressure of not scoring to get to them, leading to a vicious circle of even more snatched chances. Once they break through this psychological barrier the goals should start to flow again because confidence and belief returns and this in turn leads to greater composure in front of goal when the half-chances present themselves.
We can but hope.
Oh, yeah, I am partly agreeing with you - the frenetic nature of the PL leads to players having less time on the ball than equivalent leagues elsewhere. However, this is only exacerbated by the fact that our system is more intense than 19 of the other PL sides. I don't think our players are succumbing to the pressure of goalless runs (if that were so, then that would have ended after the Stoke win) as much as they're just operating at the limits of their capability when it comes to fashioning and finishing chances in an intense, extremely quick system against fit, energetic opponents. To put it another way, I don't think they can do better than this *at the moment*. And we're doing fine as it stands, so I don't think there's much to complain about even at current levels.
When other teams drop off in fitness around December/January...that's when I think our players will start finishing chances with ease again, and we'll see blowouts like Stoke become more common. Simply put, our level of fitness will be maintained (hopefully), while other teams drop off, and that affords our players more time and space on the ball...time and space that they'll undoubtedly use.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
Spot on all players can improve and all coaches should use that as a mantra when they take charge of training.
lurker of old
Gus Poyet
* Apart from Eriken bottling out of tackles, Lamela being inconsistent, selling Mason (sorry GB), Janssen not being good enough, Dier going through a slump in form, Sissoko being too expensive and crap at Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Carrol being lightweight, Wimmer being replaced as soon as Verts was fit, Dembele being injury prone, Bentaleb being sent out on loan...
That is not a bad list at all. And don't let Lorris's heroics the other night blind you to his poor distribution...and Walker can't cross to save his life, and Alli - well even his manager says he is an untrained horse....
That is not a bad list at all. And don't let Lorris's heroics the other night blind you to his poor distribution...and Walker can't cross to save his life, and Alli - well even his manager says he is an untrained horse....