Who are the leaders in the team?

[Gutter Boy]

He is certainly very vocal on the pitch and a good speaker off the pitch. I don't see he has the qualities required though, in terms of inspiring his teammates when they are down or being cool under pressure. Also he has been quite poor for the last 18 months.

I think he's exhausted after 4 back-to-back seasons with 50+ games. He's probably featured more under Poch than anyone bar Lloris (Kane and Verts have had more injuries). There's obviously something there leadership wise that he has the trust of his coaches and peers.

Leadership isn't always something you can see from the outside of the group. Kane is clearly subordinate to Lloris (and seemingly content to be), but no one is really able to explain that dynamic

 

[Gutter Boy]

Haha, can't tell you how many times I've met this guy. We got one on our hockey team, always keeps yelling at people, everyone hates it. I got tinkled off at him during a match and told him off and let it slip that everyone hated him for it, hehe, it wasn't nice, but he has actually shut up now, and we're a better team for it.

The 'heroic model' of leadership became irrelevant in the 70s, pretty much everywhere apart from sport. Elite sport has slowly got there the past decade or two, but not necessarily with the fans or dinosaur pundits.

Even at the level I play at all our captain does differently is call the toss. The armband we are obliged to have by the FA just gets rotated around. The expectation is that every player has the qualities to direct and support every other player, irrespective of age or personality. And if they don't, they won't stay part of the squad.

 

[AuroRaman]

Is my memory correct that at a major tournament in recent times we were lambasted for the emphasis we put on England captaincy?

 

[milo]

Haha, can't tell you how many times I've met this guy. We got one on our hockey team, always keeps yelling at people, everyone hates it. I got tinkled off at him during a match and told him off and let it slip that everyone hated him for it, hehe, it wasn't nice, but he has actually shut up now, and we're a better team for it.

I used to play Sunday league with one. Everyone was dying with embarrassment every time he started up. Everyone thought that he was a clam. He did nothing to improve morale or performances.

 

[Robspur12]

I think he's exhausted after 4 back-to-back seasons with 50+ games. He's probably featured more under Poch than anyone bar Lloris (Kane and Verts have had more injuries). There's obviously something there leadership wise that he has the trust of his coaches and peers.

Leadership isn't always something you can see from the outside of the group. Kane is clearly subordinate to Lloris (and seemingly content to be), but no one is really able to explain that dynamic

He's had a good rest this season so tiredness can no longer be used as an excuse. He also hardly played at the last World Cup unlike say Trippier and Eriksen.

While I agree about off the pitch leadership, on the pitch it is quite clear. Both lloris and Kane show it in their own way.

 

[Junior19]

I used to play Sunday league with one. Everyone was dying with embarrassment every time he started up. Everyone thought that he was a clam. He did nothing to improve morale or performances.

There is a huuuuuge difference between _thinking_ you're the leader of the team, and being it. Your examples are clearly of people who get this wrong.

Also, being the type of leader the op ask for here is not that much about shouting, as such. It is just as much about shouting the right thing at the right time, take the fights when needed, and to be supportive when called for. Keane has been mentioned, and although we on the outside saw mostly the angry, shouting Keane, I think you'll find plenty of examples of him doing the other bits as well. That way, when he shouted at you, you knew you'd fudged up, and deserved it.

But I agree that leadership has changed, and thank Ghod for that. But I for one missed the leader who stood up for Son this weekend. Who would have gone straight over to that Bournemouth-prick and told him that he may have fooled the ref, but his leg would snap in the next tackle. Ie. "you may do this to us unpunished by the ref, but I will hurt you!", and then gone and taken a yellow for it. Kind of like the entire Trabzonspor-team did when Emre called Zokora a "fu***ng nigger".

 

[AuroRaman]

There is a huuuuuge difference between _thinking_ you're the leader of the team, and being it. Your examples are clearly of people who get this wrong.

Also, being the type of leader the op ask for here is not that much about shouting, as such. It is just as much about shouting the right thing at the right time, take the fights when needed, and to be supportive when called for. Keane has been mentioned, and although we on the outside saw mostly the angry, shouting Keane, I think you'll find plenty of examples of him doing the other bits as well. That way, when he shouted at you, you knew you'd fudged up, and deserved it.

But I agree that leadership has changed, and thank Ghod for that. But I for one missed the leader who stood up for Son this weekend. Who would have gone straight over to that Bournemouth-prick and told him that he may have fooled the ref, but his leg would snap in the next tackle. Ie. "you may do this to us unpunished by the ref, but I will hurt you!", and then gone and taken a yellow for it. Kind of like the entire Trabzonspor-team did when Emre called Zokora a "fu***ng nigger".

Will never tire of seeing that

 

[harr1984]

There is a huuuuuge difference between _thinking_ you're the leader of the team, and being it. Your examples are clearly of people who get this wrong.

Also, being the type of leader the op ask for here is not that much about shouting, as such. It is just as much about shouting the right thing at the right time, take the fights when needed, and to be supportive when called for. Keane has been mentioned, and although we on the outside saw mostly the angry, shouting Keane, I think you'll find plenty of examples of him doing the other bits as well. That way, when he shouted at you, you knew you'd fudged up, and deserved it.

But I agree that leadership has changed, and thank Ghod for that. But I for one missed the leader who stood up for Son this weekend. Who would have gone straight over to that Bournemouth-prick and told him that he may have fooled the ref, but his leg would snap in the next tackle. Ie. "you may do this to us unpunished by the ref, but I will hurt you!", and then gone and taken a yellow for it. Kind of like the entire Trabzonspor-team did when Emre called Zokora a "fu***ng nigger".

Unfortunately Dier had been subbed - he is the man for this sort of thing no question. And the amount of lives he had that game, might not of even been booked for it....

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Unfortunately Dier had been subbed - he is the man for this sort of thing no question. And the amount of lives he had that game, might not of even been booked for it....

I thought of him too, he always takes these things personally!

 

[glasgowspur]

A lot of the Lamela effect is more technical than motivation though. He reads and applies the press better than anyone we have - Kane is a close call. It's the extra pressure created by his pressing and the ferocity with which he does it that allows the rest of our team to push up and follow behind.

I believe there's a small element of the rest of the team seeing him go and thinking they want a bit of that, but on the whole I don't think top level footballers should need motivation. They're at that level because their ability to motivate themselves to continue improving and achieving is so strong.

Lamela pressing causes uncertainty, players are never sure if he's hunting the ball or them. That moment of indecision it causes when they have to choose to protect the ball or themselves can cause panic.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Actually the thing we needed a leader for against Bournemouth was someone to take responsibility for getting a Bournemouth player sent off, to even up the numbers. Verts, Lamela or Dier would have been perfect for that, but sadly none were on the pitch

 

[parklane1]

..... In the 1970s

Pretty much nothing on this earth is the same now as it was then. What makes you think football is?

Its not and it does not take insight to know that. But as i said earlier those who do not know how important a good Capt/leader is to a team has never played at a good level. Pub football does not count.

 

[scaramanga]

Its not and it does not take insight to know that. But as i said earlier those who do not know how important a good Capt/leader is to a team has never played at a good level. Pub football does not count.

"Anybody not watching the match from my sofa last Sunday couldn't possibly understand football"

Does that sound a little silly to you?

 

[parklane1]

"Anybody not watching the match from my sofa last Sunday couldn't possibly understand football"

Does that sound a little silly to you?

No more then a lot of your posts do.

 

[scaramanga]

No more then a lot of your posts do.

Let me try with a few real world examples then.

"Anybody who hasn't tried yoga can't possibly understand how beneficial it is to one's soul"
"Vegan diets just have to be tried - the difference in my life is inconceivable"
"Dietary supplements have changed my life - you have to try it to believe it"

Football isn't 11 thuggish departs kicking lumps out of each other anymore. Professional footballers are highly motivated, elite athletes who are more than capable of motivating themselves for 90 minutes without Vinnie Jones screaming in their ears every time they rooster something up.

 

[parklane1]

I understand what you are saying but you obviously are on a mission again so i will leave you to it. The one thing i can agree with your posts in this thread is that Vinnie Jones is no leader.

 

[Robspur12]

Unfortunately Dier had been subbed - he is the man for this sort of thing no question. And the amount of lives he had that game, might not of even been booked for it....

Dier hadn't been subbed when Son got sent off. I know this because he was the one pushing Son off the pitch which I remember being a little annoyed at. Sissoko also stands up for teammates too. But I wouldn't say either are leaders in their own right.

 

[Robspur12]

Actually the thing we needed a leader for against Bournemouth was someone to take responsibility for getting a Bournemouth player sent off, to even up the numbers. Verts, Lamela or Dier would have been perfect for that, but sadly none were on the pitch

Sadly Lamela is never on the pitch.

 

[SubZero]

Us humans seems to work best in a hierarchical structure, which is why it is used both in a corporate environment as well as the military. To once more use Man Utd as an example, Ferguson had his trusted sergeant in Keane, not their best player - not even their best midfielder. But he owned the dressing room. Scholes was some kind of deputy, and probably a couple more. When Ferguson had to make a message come across, he delegated this downwards to them, who made sure that everybody understood. This also made the distance up to Ferguson a little longer, which made him a little more respected, or feared perhaps, depending on who you asked. Newcomers like Pogba would never be allowed to make the atmosphere as toxic as he (allegedly) does in that environment.

Now, I'm not saying every club or every manager has the same approach, or the same setup. Or that it even works for every club. Tottenham at that time was highly clique-ish, comprised of small groups with different subcultures. I can't remember any Norwegians playing with then-star player Edward, to name one, having a single positive word to say about him off the pitch. It was not a tight-knit club, it was little more than a work place. And we were pretty sh*t. That's what I love about the club today, for all Son's and Alli's stupid handshakes and stuff, at least it indicates that there's more going on than merely being on the same team.

But back to the leader stuff, yes things have changed. A footballer made a good earning and was popular before, but the way it is today with all the exposure, social media, branding and so on is simply ridiculous. A player has much more power today, in some cases more than the manager himself. There's very little fear, not as much respect, and nothing flabbered this or that way in interviews will change my opinion about that. Our most successful recent manager has been more hands-on arm-around-the-shoulder type, which is good for morale as long as everything is fine and dandy, but in my opinion doesn't instil the last few drops of whatever-juice needed to flow over the edge. In certain situations at work, in my experience, you listen to co-workers while you obey your boss. That's when you need leaders, foremen, captains, call it what you like. Modern organizations with visions are increasinly adopting this, more leaders and less bosses.

Remember that our core, while still exciting, isn't all that young and maybe enthusiastic and hungry anymore, no matter what they say to the press, and has been mainly unchanged at the club for several years now. This may very well come back to bite me after tomorrow, or dare I say 1st of June, but I think we are nearing our ceiling without someone to kick arses when needed, to prevent collapses and pull stuff and shirts together when things are rough. Neither Harry nor Hugo strikes me as the kind of leader we need to make that final step. No new and shiny fullback will change this. Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely thrilled that we are in the position we are, and being regular CL participants makes it easier to attract the kind of players the club see as necessary to bring us even further. But it seems like we still are out to unearth gems before getting what we really need (IMO), an established leader/captain, as I've said for years.

There should be no doubt in neither heaven nor hell that I'd absolutely love to be proven wrong about this.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

The simple answer, is to get better footballers - they don't need leaders.

Football isn't 11 thuggish departs kicking lumps out of each other anymore. Professional footballers are highly motivated, elite athletes who are more than capable of motivating themselves for 90 minutes without Vinnie Jones screaming in their ears every time they rooster something up.

https://sports.yahoo.com/sissoko-hails-leader-harry-kane-084452758.html

No further comment necessary....