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Where did this all begin - are we to blame?

Jurgen the German said:
Where did I rule it out? It's equally stupid and lazy just to blame the support when there are other factors. Like not being able to break teams down who come to defend. Or not having a plan B, or the manager making bad substitutions, the crowd plays no part in those things.
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As I said, underperformance is likely due to a number of factors. The crowd reaction (or non-reaction) being one of them. We, the fans, have zero impact on the stuff you mention (subs, tactics, player fitness, whatnot). But the ONE thing we as a collective actually HAVE an impact on -- we are to ignore that because there are other issues that likely also needs adressing? That IS stupid and above all lazy. No one is just blaming the support. But it seems quite a few are content to completely ignore the effect of (non-)support.
 
billyiddo said:
i don't think they are, i think that's being overblown by people being defensive - i don't think Pochettino blamed the fans as such, just said the atmosphere has a negative impact and contributes, which IMO is fair enough and is what what a lot of people are agreeing with.

do you agree with the notion that the crowd can be the 12th man on occasion?
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Yes I do agree the crowd can be the 12th man. The Seattle Seahawks fans call themselves "the 12th man" and are regarded as the best fans in the NFL. Having said that, there's only so much the fans can do.

I definitely agree it is a factor, but our lack of a plan B and our overall buildup play is the far bigger problem the way I see it.

Not only that, but we have no fighters/leaders, no one willing to stick their foot in. Hate saying this, but we need a few clams in our team, like Wheelchair, not him specifically, but players with that similar kind of attitude (on the pitch of course not off it). We are a bunch of pussies.

The mentality is also a major factor as has been discussed. Our heads drop when we go a goal down.
 
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nerdved said:
As I said, underperformance is likely due to a number of factors. The crowd reaction (or non-reaction) being one of them. We, the fans, have zero impact on the stuff you mention (subs, tactics, player fitness, whatnot). But the ONE thing we as a collective actually HAVE an impact on -- we are to ignore that because there are other issues that likely also needs adressing? That IS stupid and above all lazy. No one is just blaming the support. But it seems quite a few are content to completely ignore the effect of (non-)support.
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Well it just comes across to me as the crowd are being cited as the main reason. Don't get wrong, it only exascerbates the issue when we are playing crap, but they wouldn't be so negative if the performances were so dire in the first place. It's a nice idea to think the fans should always spur the team on excuse the pun when they need to, but it doesn't work like that and most crowds in English football are the same from my experiences following Spurs home and away.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Yes I do agree the crowd can be the 12th man. The Seattle Seahawks fans call themselves "the 12th man" and are regarded as the best fans in the league. Having said that, there's only so much the fans can do.

I definitely agree it is a factor, but our lack of a plan B and our overall buildup play is the far bigger problem the way I see it.

Not only that, but we have no fighters/leaders, no one willing to stick their foot in. Hate saying this, but we need a few clams in our team, like Wheelchair, not him specifically, but players with that similar kind of attitude (on the pitch of course not off it). We are a bunch of pussies.

The mentality is also a major factor as has been discussed. Our heads drop when we go a goal down.
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I find when things are going well our fans are probably some in the best in the league and WHL is bouncing. WHL was up to last year a fortress and our expectations have shot up in the last 4 seasons some of play at times was amazing, however in recent seasons since harry left we've lost three very good players in Bale, Modric and Ledders and so i think the fans need to be more patient however in the same breathe i think the players need to show and give something back. Take yesterday for example, Capoue hits the balls miles up in the air and then expects Lamela to head it, they have a few words but it spiced up the crowd a bit. We want to see some passion and desire.

After QPR i was fairly confident we might be turning the corner but our last two performances at WHL have been really poor. WHL used to be such a fortress and now i'm not sure what spurs side is going to turn up while we are now in transition.

Our team lacks leadership, craft and most of all intelligence. So many times yesterday we picked the wrong option, some of the passing out from the back is really bad and so risky and then going forward some of the passing and movement, you wonder what some of them do all week in training.

I think alot changed when we bought those 7 new signings last year, we now have a very bloated squad and i think we just bought too many players and none have really been integrated, none of them really know much about the club and really care much. I was thinking if we still had the likes of Bale, Ledders and modric around they could probably help in guiding these guys we have a lot of new recruits learning each others game on the job so to speak, we need some characters to emerge i think Fazio and Stambouli might be these guys but they need to play. Poch has a v big job on his hands..

After watching yesterday.. We should bring in JV and Fazio at the back and ditch Kaboul and Vlad. I'd also bring in Stambouli for capoue who is terrible. And try Stambolui and demeble in the middle. Or even perhaps try Eriksen in a more deeper role where modric used to play?
 
Jurgen the German said:
Well it just comes across to me as the crowd are being cited as the main reason. Don't get wrong, it only exascerbates the issue when we are playing crap, but they wouldn't be so negative if the performances were so dire in the first place. It's a nice idea to think the fans should always spur the team on excuse the pun when they need to, but it doesn't work like that and most crowds in English football are the same from my experiences following Spurs home and away.
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what makes you think that? genuine question as all i can see is it being stated as a factor.
 
People call for a pressing game. However the clubs that are best at pressing in world football are inspired by the atmosphere at their grounds to keep going. High intensity from the players matched by high intensity from the crowd. Dortmund being the obvious example. There is a reason that the intensity is faster and more aggressive in the big games and that is the atmosphere.

We as a fan base should be ashamed of ourselves at White Hart Lane,and yes I have a season ticket. 1882 is the way forward,it is a shame that it has taken something organized rather than the spontaneous will of the crowd but it is needed.

Does anyone really enjoy going to the Lane anymore? I am finding it hard to and I am obsessed with this club. Do you think the players enjoy playing in front of us. You can tell me they are well paid till the cows come home,but a negative working atmosphere is something to be avoided.
 
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It's the result of one home match. The odds on the match were
77% tottenham win
19% draw
4% on west brom

That means that we are expected to lose one game like this per season, which we usually do. No crisis, no shock result, it's business as usual!

Yesterday was more about fans coming to terms with the fact that we are not punching at our weight or over our weight anymore. The reality is that unless our new coach can do something special then we have to wait for Ericsson and Lamela to become good enough to drag the rest of the club out of mediocrity.
 
Jurgen the German said:
From a lot of posters talking about the crowd and barely mentioning how we actually in these types of home games or any other factors.
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I think you will find that all the other threads on this forum cover the players/tactics/etc. One topic per thread and all that.
 
billyiddo said:
but this thread is about the support :lol:
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As I just said, that doesn't mean other topics shouldn't spill over so to speak into this thread. I don't know how else to say it so people can understand, it just comes across like the support is being cited as the main reason.
 
of course - but you seem to be taking the focused discussion of our support, in a thread on that subject, as evidence that people think it's the cheif reason we're doing badly - that just doesn't really make sense mate, well at least not to me anyway :lol:
 
billyiddo said:
of course - but you seem to be taking the focused discussion of our support, in a thread on that subject, as evidence that people think it's the cheif reason we're doing badly - that just doesn't really make sense mate, well at least not to me anyway :lol:
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I've just seen so many of these threads/posts about that to me, it comes across that the fans poor support at home games is the biggest factor for some of our woeful home displays. All I have done is attempted to broaden the discussion out a bit and discuss other factors that run deeper.
 
Sadly I think it's an exchange. The support has certainly been 'flatter' at the Lane for a couple of years in terms of participation, but that has a fair amount to do with the instant 'passion' seen on the pitch. It might be facile in many ways, but people/fans/me respond to some fire, some 'oomph' and some perceptible heart-felt drive and love for the club/match, a desire to fight.

Think about the debut of Edgar Davids. Within three minutes he had virtually twitted Parlour, and I remember the boisterous cheers it got. In fact Davids, despite his sometimes bizarre performances, was exactly the sort of player who got the Lane hot and loud. Tainio was another, quieter but steely version. And when PSB was the man, before he remembered his love of the Dippers and fecked off, to get people roaring and shouting because he DEMANDED of our side in the same way we demand of our side.

On Sunday I saw NO spark WHATSOEVER until Lennon came on. He looked up for it. It's quite something when you look at Azza and cite him as the 'vibe'…we desperately need a character, a leader, a fist-pumping warrior to get us going. I'll hand Parker that much, he was one of those, but we haven't had a real one since Davids, and I think we need one.

Not that Cambiasso's a fist-pumper per se, but I wish we'd done that deal as his experience is huge.

Right now I think it's hard for supporters to get behind the tallow-looking side which seems to sometimes shuffle it's way through, or the 'cash surfers' who wander out onto the field and punt about for 94 mins never really caring.

Great question BTW...
 
thfcsteff said:
Sadly I think it's an exchange. The support has certainly been 'flatter' at the Lane for a couple of years in terms of participation, but that has a fair amount to do with the instant 'passion' seen on the pitch. It might be facile in many ways, but people/fans/me respond to some fire, some 'oomph' and some perceptible heart-felt drive and love for the club/match, a desire to fight.

Think about the debut of Edgar Davids. Within three minutes he had virtually twitted Parlour, and I remember the boisterous cheers it got. In fact Davids, despite his sometimes bizarre performances, was exactly the sort of player who got the Lane hot and loud. Tainio was another, quieter but steely version. And when PSB was the man, before he remembered his love of the Dippers and fecked off, to get people roaring and shouting because he DEMANDED of our side in the same way we demand of our side.

On Sunday I saw NO spark WHATSOEVER until Lennon came on. He looked up for it. It's quite something when you look at Azza and cite him as the 'vibe'…we desperately need a character, a leader, a fist-pumping warrior to get us going. I'll hand Parker that much, he was one of those, but we haven't had a real one since Davids, and I think we need one.

Not that Cambiasso's a fist-pumper per se, but I wish we'd done that deal as his experience is huge.

Right now I think it's hard for supporters to get behind the tallow-looking side which seems to sometimes shuffle it's way through, or the 'cash surfers' who wander out onto the field and punt about for 94 mins never really caring.

Great question BTW...
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Why must it be an exchange though ? Why can't we just do our bit come what may ?
 
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