Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[braineclipse]

Players queuing up unmarked in the box to slot home balls played in from the wing.

I do think they’ll care if we are off the pace for Europe. It’s about how seriously he presents himself as a representative of a club that (supposedly anyhow) wants to achieve European football and be in the mix for every competition it enters.

I think we should separate a chaotic situation in the box after a set piece is half cleared like what ended up costing us against Roma and the crosses from open play. They're very different situations and I think we've improved significantly in our defending of set pieces this season.

I agree, the results will matter. His comments in a press conference much less so.

 

[Diamond Lights]

Unless the board have given him the remit to just be entertaining and attack at all costs (to clear the stench of Jose, Nuno and Conte and get bums on seats), this is not the talk of a serious manager who claims to want to win..i'm sorry...

I agree and made my earlier post before seeing this.

I love that it's entertaining and we play attacking football. But it's not binary, it's not EITHER ATTACK OR PLAY PRAGMATIC DEFENCE CONTE BALL.

We were attacking and playing well, but the last 10mins, required pragmatism, required more defending, more dark arts type of football. And you can see out the win.

That press conference line man, shocking in my eyes.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Pep isn't Pep without the quality and intelligence of players he needs for his systems. Obviously, that takes money. I've always enjoyed how City stay away from the obvious signings in European and find their own ballers based on the recruitment strategy.

Admittedly, we are now setup for a younger guy like Araola. We have the senior guys in the leadership team to support him, and we've removed the passive aggressive players that kept going on strike and getting managers fired.

City have bottomless pits of money and their failures are quickly forgotten

 

[Mikey10]

That press conference line man, shocking in my eyes.

I really do believe it will have caused some on the Board to pause and think.

The decent Liverpool fan (there is the odd one!) in work this morning felt it was a weird thing to put out there to other mangers: "Our primary purpose is to entertain, not to beat you."

For me, it gives the players an out: "Well, we lost, but it was an exciting match! We learn from it and move on."

Maybe that's over-egging the pudding, but it did strike me as an unwise reaction after conceding an equaliser in a game that we were favourites to win at home, and which would have gone a long way to securing our qualification for the next stage of the competition.

I'm not at all convinced now that we are going to automatically qualify.

 

[johnola]

I only watch football as entertainment.

If it were only about winning the game would be unwatchable, for example, Lionel Messi would have had broken a leg in every single match he played.

 

[Bishop]

He isn’t here for the long term imo
It’s the Harry appointment before the poch

Do you think so? I've been wondering the same thing, I do feel like squad wise we are getting to a good place where a competent balanced coach could do really, really well with it (plus some obvious additions) but I'd kind of like that to be Ange because he's started the journey and a lot of his principles I appreciate and enjoy.

He just needs to be a little less dogmatic I feel and little more aware of his surroundings. I get the forcing of the system for familiarity, but the football shouldn't just be about a system, because what is the end goal of the system? To win surely right? So if the opportunity is there to win, with a little adjustment why not take it?

Yesterday we saw the overload all 2nd half, yet we never addressed it or even attempted to. We saw Ange getting upset with BJ for not running forward even so it quite clear where his priorities lie but I don't think it can work with the players he has and he just doesn't seem to accept that. He has to make a little more allowance for the quality of the player he has and the quality of the opposition we play.

 

[fernadez]

I remember in his first friendly either him or one of the players was staring that we were winning the game, it was just before half time and the players kept the ball and controlled the tempo. When they got in a half time Ange went ballistic at them telling them this was wrong and we should be looking to attack no matter the minute and no matter the score.

Never paid much attention to it at the time, but now......

 

[Mikey10]

I only watch football as entertainment.

If it were only about winning the game would be unwatchable, for example, Lionel Messi would have had broken a leg in every single match he played.

Why would winning necessarily involve injuring an opponent - especially when that would probably have the subsequent impact of weakening your own team through a sending off?

And do you really go to/watch a Spurs game primarily wanting entertainment first and winning as an occasional happy by-product?

"I hope we entertain the hell out of Arsenal today!"

 

[braineclipse]

I think in part it's Ange's way of deflecting responsibility away from the players and onto himself. If so pretty effective it seems.

Said it before, I'll keep saying it. He's not naive about the realities of football.

 

[braineclipse]

I agree and made my earlier post before seeing this.

I love that it's entertaining and we play attacking football. But it's not binary, it's not EITHER ATTACK OR PLAY PRAGMATIC DEFENCE CONTE BALL.

We were attacking and playing well, but the last 10mins, required pragmatism, required more defending, more dark arts type of football. And you can see out the win.

That press conference line man, shocking in my eyes.

How many points did we drop under Mourinho and Conte trying to see games out like that?

I don't think dropping points late on in games from a winning position has been a particularly big issue under Ange? May be wrong on that, just my impression.

These things will happen with any approach sometimes at least.

 

[JerusalemMan]

I agree and made my earlier post before seeing this.

I love that it's entertaining and we play attacking football. But it's not binary, it's not EITHER ATTACK OR PLAY PRAGMATIC DEFENCE CONTE BALL.

We were attacking and playing well, but the last 10mins, required pragmatism, required more defending, more dark arts type of football. And you can see out the win.

That press conference line man, shocking in my eyes.

Nah, I loved it.
Long may he reign.

Last night was so much fun.

 

[braineclipse]

As i said before, i'm not Ange out, nor am I thinking he's the second coming of Jesus. I feel i have to preface this each post as our fans are quite divided. but last night was on Ange. Another game where we just weren't smart, and i think it's intentional and instructed from him.

His constant ethos on attacking the other team. We were 2-1 up and under the cosh for last 15mins. How many fouls did we win? How many times did we kill the game. drop down with an injury, break the momentum of Roma?

Such a silly game to throw away. Time and time again, and a lot of times at 1-0 in the first half, Roma attacked, we won the back back, and instead of just slowing things down, holding possession, we tried to break fast or have Forster move the ball out super quick, just to fail to beat the press and have the ball come back again and again.

If we're a bit smarter we would close games out, but this method of constant attack, when reading the game it's the wrong thing, cost us the win last night and that's on Ange. just, incredible how good we are yet how dumb we play sometimes. It's ok when you're Celtic in the Scottish league. there are times in PL/Europe where pragmatism or smarts are required and i get he's wedded to his principles but throwing away games is foolish.

I kind of agree, but think it's not as much about the system as such.

Made a post in the Romero thread making similar points to yours about how useful it can be when he "stands on the ball".

Most good or very good teams have players that can change the tempo of a game, put their foot on the ball metaphorically if not physically.

We have Romero for that and when on form Maddison. Ange did bring on Maddison yesterday, but he was unable to impact the game much. Most of our other players are very much on the "not so much" side of the spectrum of being able to change the tempo of the game.

I think that's part of what people want when they want a new 6/DM. It's certainly part of what I would want. Also part of why I prioritise proper ball playing centre backs very highly. Those are often the players best situated to do that, if they're good at it.

A dribbly winger can also help with that if a good profile.

I think that's part of Ange's strategy too. That's why I think Romero is doing that, because Ange hasn't asked him to stop it. But I'm not sure we can get that much from Dragusin, VdV (yet at least for both), Bissouma, Bentancur, Sarr (again, yet), Kulusevski. And our only dribble wingers are out injured and 17 and 20 years old.

 

[Baleforce]

Nah, I loved it.
Long may he reign.

Last night was so much fun.

Really?

I hated it.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Really?

I hated it.

Ach, you joyless sponge!

 

[Baleforce]

Ach, you joyless sponge!

I’m full of joy when the opposition are completely contained.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Do you think so? I've been wondering the same thing, I do feel like squad wise we are getting to a good place where a competent balanced coach could do really, really well with it (plus some obvious additions) but I'd kind of like that to be Ange because he's started the journey and a lot of his principles I appreciate and enjoy.

He just needs to be a little less dogmatic I feel and little more aware of his surroundings. I get the forcing of the system for familiarity, but the football shouldn't just be about a system, because what is the end goal of the system? To win surely right? So if the opportunity is there to win, with a little adjustment why not take it?

Yesterday we saw the overload all 2nd half, yet we never addressed it or even attempted to. We saw Ange getting upset with BJ for not running forward even so it quite clear where his priorities lie but I don't think it can work with the players he has and he just doesn't seem to accept that. He has to make a little more allowance for the quality of the player he has and the quality of the opposition we play.

Yeah I really do
Said it after 6 months
I really really like Ange
But I ding see him as a project manager even though that’s what we’re asking of him
I think he is doing everything he can too
I don’t judge him vs the football or the outcomes game by game but more about the progress and style
It just has the vibes for me of Harry vs Poch
And I loved Poch which is what I think we will end up with next, someone to add the icing sugar on the cake (or whatever will be a better analogy) after someone else has baked the cake

 

[glorygloryeze]

Yeah I really do
Said it after 6 months
I really really like Ange
But I ding see him as a project manager even though that’s what we’re asking of him
I think he is doing everything he can too
I don’t judge him vs the football or the outcomes game by game but more about the progress and style
It just has the vibes for me of Harry vs Poch
And I loved Poch which is what I think we will end up with next, someone to add the icing sugar on the cake (or whatever will be a better analogy) after someone else has baked the cake

So, from that, sounds like you think he'll be gone at the end of the season as he wants to win now rather than wait a few years for some of the younger players to reach their potential etc?

 

[Diamond Lights]

How many points did we drop under Mourinho and Conte trying to see games out like that?

I don't think dropping points late on in games from a winning position has been a particularly big issue under Ange? May be wrong on that, just my impression.

These things will happen with any approach sometimes at least.

But that's my point, you're comparing to a time where for 90 mins that's all we did. I'm saying it's not binary, we can play how we played yesterday, but for the last 10mins, yes a bit of Conte/Jose defending and pragmatism was needed. We also saw us win several games under both of them under that method. Now again, i dont want that style of play. but SOMETIMES, it needs to happen.

i'm not saying it has to happen ALL GAME. i'm saying if you're 2-1 up and the opposition are literally camping in and around your goal area, be more pragmatic, slow the game, waste time, feign an injury ffs. All of it, to see out the win. Dont do it for 90mins, do it for 10.

Ange wants us to be the great entertainers which i get, but he also wants to win. Sometimes you have to win ugly. Inter Milan beat Arsenal 1-0 a few weeks back. At 1-0 up, took off Taremi, a striker, brought on Dimarco, a defender. Saw the game out, won 1-0.

Ange being wedded to his principles at the cost of us winning games is a problem. It's idiocy.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Depends what the standard for performance is that they're being measured up against. Again our goals against and xG against in the league (where we have played our first choice back 5 most of the time) is improved from last season and decent.

When we're playing with energy I think we're defending quite well. When our energy drops we struggle more. This is where we need time to develop and improve the squad imo.

What do you see as the same errors repeating themselves?

The board will care about results and to a lesser degree (I think) performances. I doubt they will care about what he says in press conferences unless he starts having Conte-esque rants about the club.

IMO we haven’t looked solid since the Crystal Palace game last season. You need to be able to win in a variety of ways like Arsenal and Liverpool do. Not so much City. Arsenal can win ugly as we’ve seen against us and they can blow teams away. I think Ange is a bit too idealistic personally. Under Poch we blew teams away but could also be stingy at the back and win 1-0. I don’t know if Ange has that in his locker consistently. When we win it’s typically a blowout.

 

[Lilbaz]

But that's my point, you're comparing to a time where for 90 mins that's all we did. I'm saying it's not binary, we can play how we played yesterday, but for the last 10mins, yes a bit of Conte/Jose defending and pragmatism was needed. We also saw us win several games under both of them under that method. Now again, i dont want that style of play. but SOMETIMES, it needs to happen.

i'm not saying it has to happen ALL GAME. i'm saying if you're 2-1 up and the opposition are literally camping in and around your goal area, be more pragmatic, slow the game, waste time, feign an injury ffs. All of it, to see out the win. Dont do it for 90mins, do it for 10.

Ange wants us to be the great entertainers which i get, but he also wants to win. Sometimes you have to win ugly. Inter Milan beat Arsenal 1-0 a few weeks back. At 1-0 up, took off Taremi, a striker, brought on Dimarco, a defender. Saw the game out, won 1-0.

Ange being wedded to his principles at the cost of us winning games is a problem. It's idiocy.

Disagree. Seen us loads oftimes sit back after winning only to let the other team back in. They sneak a goal then we go to pieces.

Keep going. The opposition can't score if the ball is in their net.