Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[SpiderSpurs]

This is Ange's fault too?

He's lost the older players. Anyone with eyes can see it!!

 

[glorygloryeze]

He's lost the older players. Anyone with eyes can see it!!

The younger players are newer to football and at this stage will accept almost whatever instruction.

The likes of Son, Bentancur, Kulu etc have played with more astute coaches than Ange previously and so when results go south, they'll lose faith much quicker given that his methods look (certainly from the outside) naive and mind-boggling...

 

[DeanoAustin]

I've said this before and it's speculative but I can see The Athletic article when he goes:

"was a breath of fresh air initially...became obvious he had no plan B...players became concerned about injuries...manager became aloof...his public comments were another cause for concern...Levy stuck with him as a change of approach with managers and because he genuinely liked Ange...Everton, Leicester and particularly Liverpool were watershed moments for the squad"

He's a dead man walking at this point.

 

[thfcsteff]

You keep giving excuses about injuries....have you not sen our form that goes way back to late 2023 and how when we've had our injured players back, we still are getting poor results?

Do you really look at our results against Ipswich, Leicester (both games), Palace, Everton (at Goodison) and still say we've won none of those games and that was because of our injuries? I mean Really??

They are not 'excuses' they are facts. The facts are that we have been without Vicario, Van de Ven, Romero, Udogie, Johnson, Solanke, Maddison, Richarlison, Odobert for most of the last two and half months. Of that list, the first four have been consistently non-available since then, the others have between them been unavailable for half.

 

[RigorMortis]

They are not 'excuses' they are facts. The facts are that we have been without Vicario, Van de Ven, Romero, Udogie, Johnson, Solanke, Maddison, Richarlison, Odobert for most of the last two and half months. Of that list, the first four have been consistently non-available since then, the others have between them been unavailable for half.

You can use facts as part of an excuse.

There are those who believe the injuries are the major contributor to our woeful form

There are others who believe it’s the ineptitude of the current incumbent that is the overarching issue

 

[thfcsteff]

I think the saddest aspect of Thursday's defeat was the manner.
IF we're going to lose, I'd rather we lost with our way of playing at least being seen. I appreciate I am in a minority here, but I'd have preferred another 6-3 defeat where we gave iot a go and got torn on the counter than what we got, which was a drubbing whilst stuck in neutral gear.

I am having a very hard time justifying Bentancur and Bissouma's performances beyond them maybe not being able to play two games a week. Sarr gets a pass because he is young and I believe playing hurt for the team. But yeah, I was really annoyed at Bentancur and Bissouma's balless pair of efforts out there. Seniors leading? Give me a break! Once again our main leaders were Gray and (when he came on) Bergvall. Sonny? Look, he's dying out there, it's like Monty Python and The Holy Grail, but I at least saw some effort if not product (other than'The Shot').

I have to also wonder if Ange has, indeed, lost the likes of Bentancur and Bissouma? I don't believe he has, but clearly, those two plus Sarr had absolutely no appetite for what that game needed. So that has to fall on Ange. It has to, right? He is the manager.
I was particularly tinkled off at how after Bradley's borderline cruncher on Sonny, NO-ONE showed any thunder or 'protective instinct' to put in a similar challenge on (say) Salah? They outfought us comfortably. Unacceptable. The last time I went to a game at Anfield we were 3 down in 15 minutes. We came back to 3-3, only for Lucas to give Jota an assist for an injury time Liverpool winner. That second-half, we went for it. Admittedly we had Kane on the pitch too. We played our way and fought after a fudging shambolic 15 minutes.

It really does feel that if we lose on Sunday, unless he wins the Europa, Ange will not be our manager once the season ends. He is most certainly running out of ideas, regardless of what we do or don't do to salvage the season.

It is beginning to feel like the scars of this season will be too great for him to overcome, especially in an era where managers rarely last more than 3 seasons as it is.

 

[thfcsteff]

You can use facts as part of an excuse.

There are those who believe the injuries are the major contributor to our woeful form

There are others who believe it’s the ineptitude of the current incumbent that is the overarching issue

How about 'there are those who believe that a combination of factors are the reason behind what is a pretty bricky season'?!!!! Funnily enough, there's a geezer in the North West who's traveled a similar path with slightly less injuries than us but significant ones nonetheless AND got over 150 mill's worth of spending in the window only to get his arse handed to him by the woolwich wanderers. I don't disagree that we might well be witnessing someone who has reached the end of their ability to manage this club, but I disagree it is largely down to ineptitude. My read is that circumstances plus operations plus his way are all contributors...

 

[RigorMortis]

How about 'there are those who believe that a combination of factors are the reason behind what is a pretty bricky season'?!!!! Funnily enough, there's a geezer in the North West who's traveled a similar path with slightly less injuries than us but significant ones nonetheless AND got over 150 mill's worth of spending in the window only to get his arse handed to him by the woolwich wanderers. I don't disagree that we might well be witnessing someone who has reached the end of their ability to manage this club, but I disagree it is largely down to ineptitude. My read is that circumstances plus operations plus his way are all contributors...

I don’t disagree it’s a combination of factors and the injuries obviously do not help and of course our loveable owners.

Despite that I believe our manager is simple out of his depth.

Comparing him to Pep probably isn’t the wisest ( in my opinion) given Pep’s achievements in the game

 

[thfcsteff]

I don’t disagree it’s a combination of factors and the injuries obviously do not help and of course our loveable owners.

Despite that I believe our manager is simple out of his depth.

Comparing him to Pep probably isn’t the wisest ( in my opinion) given Pep’s achievements in the game

I find myself agreeing that this entire situation is getting ontop of him. I think it would for any manager in fairness, but given we're talking aboiut Ange, then best I focus on him.

Yes, you raise a great point re: achievements, and probably not the wisest choice. What I would say is that IMV Pep has consistently had excellent resources available at elite teams with elite players already in place, thus he has been able to stubbornly stick to his principles and ways. It was remarkable to watch what happened earlier in the season at City, and that 4-1 despite new players, he has rebuild issues to deal with . Luckily for him he also has the budget to buy his way out.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Have just seen Ange’s press conference where he says “I don’t care about anyone’s opinion, I don’t listen to them.”

Bit disingenuous that. Sounds like he’s trying to be too cool for school.

Last year he had a little nibble at Gary Neville for the “copying Pep” comment

He’s mentioned Carragher and Redknapp by name when responding to criticism

He’s said, on several occasions, that he feels he’s been disrespected by the press because of his track record and nationality

He had a go in a press conference a few weeks ago when asked about defending saying sarcastically “you aren’t interested in hearing my answer. You want me to say I don’t care about defending and we don’t practice it”

He got into an altercation with fans at Bournemouth as he got some stick for what was a dreadful performance

He made a point of coming back out to stare down a fan who said “you’re taking us down”

Ange doth protest too much. Seems to me that he very much cares what other people think.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think the saddest aspect of Thursday's defeat was the manner.
IF we're going to lose, I'd rather we lost with our way of playing at least being seen. I appreciate I am in a minority here, but I'd have preferred another 6-3 defeat where we gave iot a go and got torn on the counter than what we got, which was a drubbing whilst stuck in neutral gear.

I am having a very hard time justifying Bentancur and Bissouma's performances beyond them maybe not being able to play two games a week. Sarr gets a pass because he is young and I believe playing hurt for the team. But yeah, I was really annoyed at Bentancur and Bissouma's balless pair of efforts out there. Seniors leading? Give me a break! Once again our main leaders were Gray and (when he came on) Bergvall. Sonny? Look, he's dying out there, it's like Monty Python and The Holy Grail, but I at least saw some effort if not product (other than'The Shot').

I have to also wonder if Ange has, indeed, lost the likes of Bentancur and Bissouma? I don't believe he has, but clearly, those two plus Sarr had absolutely no appetite for what that game needed. So that has to fall on Ange. It has to, right? He is the manager.
I was particularly tinkled off at how after Bradley's borderline cruncher on Sonny, NO-ONE showed any thunder or 'protective instinct' to put in a similar challenge on (say) Salah? They outfought us comfortably. Unacceptable. The last time I went to a game at Anfield we were 3 down in 15 minutes. We came back to 3-3, only for Lucas to give Jota an assist for an injury time Liverpool winner. That second-half, we went for it. Admittedly we had Kane on the pitch too. We played our way and fought after a fudging shambolic 15 minutes.

It really does feel that if we lose on Sunday, unless he wins the Europa, Ange will not be our manager once the season ends. He is most certainly running out of ideas, regardless of what we do or don't do to salvage the season.

It is beginning to feel like the scars of this season will be too great for him to overcome, especially in an era where managers rarely last more than 3 seasons as it is.

You know, I thought about your point re Bradley’s challenge and none of our lads doing the same. And I thought of Roy Keane’s comment about “you know what, I’ve been in games where it wasn’t going well so I’d just smash into someone to make me feel better and maybe gee up the crowd”.

One of ours actually did the other night. Bissouma threw in a great challenge at the cost of a corner at one point and tried to gee up the crowd. Didn’t work though.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I find myself agreeing that this entire situation is getting ontop of him. I think it would for any manager in fairness, but given we're talking aboiut Ange, then best I focus on him.

Yes, you raise a great point re: achievements, and probably not the wisest choice. What I would say is that IMV Pep has consistently had excellent resources available at elite teams with elite players already in place, thus he has been able to stubbornly stick to his principles and ways. It was remarkable to watch what happened earlier in the season at City, and that 4-1 despite new players, he has rebuild issues to deal with . Luckily for him he also has the budget to buy his way out.

I’m not convinced on these philosophy managers. Only works if you have what Pep has in terms of resources and are a genius like Pep is. Management, in any walk of life, is about adapting to various circumstances within the boundaries of your principles to get a result. If your principles are too rigid, it restricts your ability to be adaptable.

 

[Mrs Vert]

Would Slot have been good enough with Allison, van Dijk, Konate, Gomez, Quansah, Roberton, Szoboszlai, Diaz, Jota, Gakpo and Nunez out for 2/3 of the season?

Apparently (not sure how true but easy to check which I haven't l) one of the reasons is that Slot has a low injury record in his career. So it's unlikely his teams will ever have 8 players out with hamstrings . Hell even with all the 300 managers we have had, it's never been this bad has it? And we had Ledly and Sicknote

 

[Muttley]

I think the saddest aspect of Thursday's defeat was the manner.
IF we're going to lose, I'd rather we lost with our way of playing at least being seen. I appreciate I am in a minority here, but I'd have preferred another 6-3 defeat where we gave iot a go and got torn on the counter than what we got, which was a drubbing whilst stuck in neutral gear.

I am having a very hard time justifying Bentancur and Bissouma's performances beyond them maybe not being able to play two games a week. Sarr gets a pass because he is young and I believe playing hurt for the team. But yeah, I was really annoyed at Bentancur and Bissouma's balless pair of efforts out there. Seniors leading? Give me a break! Once again our main leaders were Gray and (when he came on) Bergvall. Sonny? Look, he's dying out there, it's like Monty Python and The Holy Grail, but I at least saw some effort if not product (other than'The Shot').

I have to also wonder if Ange has, indeed, lost the likes of Bentancur and Bissouma? I don't believe he has, but clearly, those two plus Sarr had absolutely no appetite for what that game needed. So that has to fall on Ange. It has to, right? He is the manager.
I was particularly tinkled off at how after Bradley's borderline cruncher on Sonny, NO-ONE showed any thunder or 'protective instinct' to put in a similar challenge on (say) Salah? They outfought us comfortably. Unacceptable. The last time I went to a game at Anfield we were 3 down in 15 minutes. We came back to 3-3, only for Lucas to give Jota an assist for an injury time Liverpool winner. That second-half, we went for it. Admittedly we had Kane on the pitch too. We played our way and fought after a fudging shambolic 15 minutes.

It really does feel that if we lose on Sunday, unless he wins the Europa, Ange will not be our manager once the season ends. He is most certainly running out of ideas, regardless of what we do or don't do to salvage the season.

It is beginning to feel like the scars of this season will be too great for him to overcome, especially in an era where managers rarely last more than 3 seasons as it is.

And how about the other players? What about Davies. Culpable for 3 of the 4 goals. Looked every part of a Championship centre half for the entire game. Trust me, there was no confidence given by Ben for his young team mates around him. He was an absolute mess. Gets a pass every week though. Sonny doesn't get a pass from some, and rightly so. He was a mess as well. Our 2 most senior players.

I notice once more the ABA'ers are finding any reason other than the manager himself to root cause the defeat. Obviously, there can be multiple root causes and we know injuries and fatigue are a huge one. However, for the time that our midfield and forward trios were on the pitch we couldn't muster a single chance, and they certainly didn't work well defensively as a unit of 6. Slight concerns on Sarr as well. He's becoming a lone wolf rather than a team cog. It's not as if those 6 players aren't quality, at least on paper.

The big concern here is still consistency with Ange's system. He seemed to imply again that the game plan wasn't what we all saw with our own eyes. He seemed to imply that it was mis-execution from the players......AGAIN. How many more times are we just going to lay it all at the players doors rather than really asking the question why an Ange tactical system is so hard to be adopted by his players? What is it about this coach and his methods that is so hard to take on board? It's not as if he's just followed a Plan A path. It's not as if we didn't have 15 quality outfield players in that squad either. Our squad is the deepest it's ever been.

Nobody expected a result at Anfield. I was hoping for a different performance though. Seriously worried about Villa now. I had that one about 50:50. It's now swung to about 75:25 in their favour in my opinion. I'll be shocked if we get a result tomorrow.

Strangely enough though, I'm still expecting Ange to complete the season.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Apparently (not sure how true but easy to check which I haven't l) one of the reasons is that Slot has a low injury record in his career. So it's unlikely his teams will ever have 8 players out with hamstrings . Hell even with all the 300 managers we have had, it's never been this bad has it? And we had Ledly and Sicknote

Slot has only managed 6 years or so, so that may change
But he is class

 

[Gazza]

To Dare is to Didgeridont

Bye bye mate

 

[DeanoAustin]

And how about the other players? What about Davies. Culpable for 3 of the 4 goals. Looked every part of a Championship centre half for the entire game. Trust me, there was no confidence given by Ben for his young team mates around him. He was an absolute mess. Gets a pass every week though. Sonny doesn't get a pass from some, and rightly so. He was a mess as well. Our 2 most senior players.

I notice once more the ABA'ers are finding any reason other than the manager himself to root cause the defeat. Obviously, there can be multiple root causes and we know injuries and fatigue are a huge one. However, for the time that our midfield and forward trios were on the pitch we couldn't muster a single chance, and they certainly didn't work well defensively as a unit of 6. Slight concerns on Sarr as well. He's becoming a lone wolf rather than a team cog. It's not as if those 6 players aren't quality, at least on paper.

The big concern here is still consistency with Ange's system. He seemed to imply again that the game plan wasn't what we all saw with our own eyes. He seemed to imply that it was mis-execution from the players......AGAIN. How many more times are we just going to lay it all at the players doors rather than really asking the question why an Ange tactical system is so hard to be adopted by his players? What is it about this coach and his methods that is so hard to take on board? It's not as if he's just followed a Plan A path. It's not as if we didn't have 15 quality outfield players in that squad either. Our squad is the deepest it's ever been.

Nobody expected a result at Anfield. I was hoping for a different performance though. Seriously worried about Villa now. I had that one about 50:50. It's now swung to about 75:25 in their favour in my opinion. I'll be shocked if we get a result tomorrow.

Strangely enough though, I'm still expecting Ange to complete the season.

Agree with most of that except the bit about Davies where I think you’re being a little harsh.

Even Ange’s comments after the game about “the lesson is we shouldn’t deviate from what got us here to start with” reek of “I’ve tried what everyone else wanted and look how that turned out. I know best.”

There will always be an excuse for Ange. “Not enough football”, “too much football”, “unlucky with injuries”, “hasn’t been backed” and so on and so on.

If he got sacked tomorrow, he and his supporters would claim that he was hard done by and had to deal with unprecedented circumstances.

For me, the evidence has been there for over a year now (in fact, it’s been there since even earlier if you looked beyond the results in the first 10 games). He’s just not good enough for this level.

Being 14th in the league in February is pretty much as bad as anyone can do managing Tottenham.

 

[Gazza]

Agree with most of that except the bit about Davies where I think you’re being a little harsh.

Even Ange’s comments after the game about “the lesson is we shouldn’t deviate from what got us here to start with” reek of “I’ve tried what everyone else wanted and look how that turned out. I know best.”

There will always be an excuse for Ange. “Not enough football”, “too much football”, “unlucky with injuries”, “hasn’t been backed” and so on and so on.

If he got sacked tomorrow, he and his supporters would claim that he was hard done by and had to deal with unprecedented circumstances.

For me, the evidence has been there for over a year now (in fact, it’s been there since even earlier if you looked beyond the results in the first 10 games). He’s just not good enough for this level.

Being 14th in the league in February is pretty much as bad as anyone can do managing Tottenham.

It’s amazing that those first ten games have got so many blinkered about him. Yet managers with better performances and win ratios were hounded out.

I’m actually dumbfounded about how he is still in a job. It’s the desperation for having a long term manager I get that bit … but you want a manager who warrants that backing who has shown that he can win and clever enough to manage situations.

 

[mudshark]

Have just seen Ange’s press conference where he says “I don’t care about anyone’s opinion, I don’t listen to them.”

Bit disingenuous that. Sounds like he’s trying to be too cool for school.

Last year he had a little nibble at Gary Neville for the “copying Pep” comment

He’s mentioned Carragher and Redknapp by name when responding to criticism

He’s said, on several occasions, that he feels he’s been disrespected by the press because of his track record and nationality

He had a go in a press conference a few weeks ago when asked about defending saying sarcastically “you aren’t interested in hearing my answer. You want me to say I don’t care about defending and we don’t practice it”

He got into an altercation with fans at Bournemouth as he got some stick for what was a dreadful performance

He made a point of coming back out to stare down a fan who said “you’re taking us down”

Ange doth protest too much. Seems to me that he very much cares what other people think.

I think he's always been a bit chippy and thin-skinned, to be honest.

 

[Yiddo]

They are not 'excuses' they are facts. The facts are that we have been without Vicario, Van de Ven, Romero, Udogie, Johnson, Solanke, Maddison, Richarlison, Odobert for most of the last two and half months. Of that list, the first four have been consistently non-available since then, the others have between them been unavailable for half.

We were brick when they wasn’t injured and we had a full strength squad fresh after being heavily rotated for cup games. Football fans really do have short memories.