Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[monkeybarry]

Yet…
Small margins in most games have cost us
Hence why we have the 1 goal defeats some of which could have been wins
We also got lucky with the draw vs Fulham though

Indeed.....

 

[monkeybarry]

And…

And.....that's really bad..... and the result of tactics that lend themselves to conceding more goals than we scored, that with adaptable management would reduce the small margins we have lost by
......

 

[glorygloryeze]

So Mr ambitious owner, I have a question, you've backed your manager in three windows, who have you backed him to compete with?
Have you spent a comparable amount of money to compete with current PL champions and recent CL winners?
Maybe that's a tall order.
So what the team who have finished twice in the past two seasons? Well maybe that's not a good example.
Right then, the team who have just lost their manager who won 7 trophies. Well they've been investing in major signings for years so it's unfair to judge you on them.
What about your neighbours down the road, did you match their £1/2 billion splurge?
Well what about the team that just won the lottery? Or team with other ambitious owners, both of them peaked, troughed and who knows if they will peadk or trough next.

Which one of those levels of backing did you give to your manager, and which one are you judging him on?

I'd have backed you to push for a title challenge and get as close to the later stages of the major cup competitions, such that by beginning of May we are still in the conversations.
So, probably Arsenal levels of backing. That means i back you to change the team/get rid of players as needed but also in return i expect you to not go below a certain level/threshold AND show you can use your resources provided/available as best as possible, so it makes me feel it's worth putting up big money for you/your targets

 

[glorygloryeze]

If we stay where we are in the lge, I agree.
If we lose to Forest and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, I think that conversation changes.

Edit - I forgot we have Wolves tucked in between, so should get at least three points. I feel slightly better.

What have you done FFS

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And.....that's really bad..... and the result of tactics that lend themselves to conceding more goals than we scored, that with adaptable management would reduce the small margins we have lost by
......

We may have
We may not have scored any and lost 3 nil
Still a brick results buy nothing less than I expected with that defence and the currents squad issues

 

[monkeybarry]

We may have
We may not have scored any and lost 3 nil
Still a brick results buy nothing less than I expected with that defence and the currents squad issues

If you use our strengths sensibly, then no.
We can, and do, score against anyone. But when you have a decimated team, you have two choices - a shoot out or game management and try to pick them off in short bursts.
Ange only knows shoot out - the results speak for themselves. The PL is not a place for shoot out only football - no one has been successful with that.

 

[glasgowspur]

I'd have backed you to push for a title challenge and get as close to the later stages of the major cup competitions, such that by beginning of May we are still in the conversations.
So, probably Arsenal levels of backing. That means i back you to change the team/get rid of players as needed but also in return i expect you to not go below a certain level/threshold AND show you can use your resources provided/available as best as possible, so it makes me feel it's worth putting up big money for you/your targets

But you accept that ange hasn't had those levels of backing?

 

[DeanoAustin]

If we stay where we are in the lge, I agree.
If we lose to Forest and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, I think that conversation changes.

Edit - I forgot we have Wolves tucked in between, so should get at least three points. I feel slightly better.

We shouldn’t be having these decisions hinge on 2 or 3 games in my view. That’s the very essence of knee jerking.

If they believe Ange is the man or could be the man, give him until the end of the season at least come what may.

 

[glorygloryeze]

But you accept that ange hasn't had those levels of backing?

I do. I actually think the board saw what happened last season and thought 'hmm., not sure this guy is really worth committing a big uptick in wages for" so i think they half-assed it and gave him a loads of kids and let the whole PR about "not wanting to block the pathways for our great youngsters" take hold. I think they half-ass it again in January and maybe hope Ange falls on his sword and walks...but, you never know..

However, i do think he should be doing better with what he DOES have.

 

[Mikey10]

And…

…and you are happy with that?

 

[glasgowspur]

I do. I actually think the board saw what happened last season and thought 'hmm., not sure this guy is really worth committing a big uptick in wages for" so i think they half-assed it and gave him a loads of kids and let the whole PR about "not wanting to block the pathways for our great youngsters" take hold. I think they half-ass it again in January and maybe hope Ange falls on his sword and walks...but, you never know..

However, i do think he should be doing better with what he DOES have.

Fair enough.
However I have long thought that a lot of our, as in the fans, problem is that we cannot define what is a success for us.
We change our minds as often as we change our socks.

 

[tommysvr]

Slot is an intriguing one. Clearly a very good manager, but also one coming into a squad built for winning competitions.

Liverpool were taking a gamble because not everyone who has managed in the Eredivisie converts well to the PL, look at Ten Hag for example.

Would he have done better for us with this squad than Ange? It's hard to know other than he does seem a lot more pragmatic.

Tbh though if the "super successful ever else he's been" Conte failed here then you kind of wonder who could succeed?

I was thinking about it the other way around today: could Ange do what Slot’s done at Liverpool? I think absolutely yes. That squad would suit him very well.

Not to take anything away from Slot, he’s done an amazing job so far and I’ll be very shocked if they don’t win the league. But anyone who thinks we would be in or close to Liverpool’s position because of Slot is missing a huge part of the puzzle. As you say, their squad is built for winning things already. We are paying the price for 4 years of bad decisions and having to completely rebuild. No manager in football could bring us the immediate success we all crave.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Fair enough.
However I have long thought that a lot of our, as in the fans, problem is that we cannot define what is a success for us.
We change our minds as often as we change our socks.

Perhaps....i certainly think many are making allowances/excuses for Ange now that they wouldn't have for previous coaches

 

[glasgowspur]

Perhaps....i certainly think many are making allowances/excuses for Ange now that they wouldn't have for previous coaches

I'd agree with that.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

…and you are happy with that?

I’m absolutely fine with the ups and downs that come with a rebuild

 

[parklane1]

We shouldn’t be having these decisions hinge on 2 or 3 games in my view. That’s the very essence of knee jerking.

If they believe Ange is the man or could be the man, give him until the end of the season at least come what may.

There is a lot of that going on at the moment for sure.

 

[Raziel]

What do people see different in Ange's tactical strategy and approach compared to the following:

- Roberto Martinez
- Marcelo Bielsa
- Brendan Rodgers
- Russell Martin


This is a genuine question and i'd like genuine responses please

Really simple

- Marcelo Bielsa is the closest, his system when it worked, allowed his teams to overwhelm other better (technically/squad/etc.) teams. Too physically demanding and injuries created real problems
- Rusell Martin (from what I've seen) simply tried to play a system his entire team didn't have the technical ability to carry out.
- The other two are simply mid tier managers with no special system/tactics

 

[glorygloryeze]

Really simple

- Marcelo Bielsa is the closest, his system when it worked, allowed his teams to overwhelm other better (technically/squad/etc.) teams. Too physically demanding and injuries created real problems
- Rusell Martin (from what I've seen) simply tried to play a system his entire team didn't have the technical ability to carry out.
- The other two are simply mid tier managers with no special system/tactics

Ok thanks.

How is what Russell Martin tried any different to what Ange is trying with us? You could argue we don't have the players to do what Ange wants too..

Can i then ask you to elaborate a bit more on the other two: in PL terms, what is Ange showing that Roberto Martiniz and Brendan Rodgers can't/couldn't?

 

[Muttley]

Really simple

- Marcelo Bielsa is the closest, his system when it worked, allowed his teams to overwhelm other better (technically/squad/etc.) teams. Too physically demanding and injuries created real problems
- Rusell Martin (from what I've seen) simply tried to play a system his entire team didn't have the technical ability to carry out.
- The other two are simply mid tier managers with no special system/tactics

I suppose if we run a survey on a large set of PL fans and gave them the 5 names, including Ange, there would be no clear winner. I think Martin would be bottom, but I couldn't tell you the other 4 places. It would be a close call.

From the outside-in, Ange is in no way building a strong reputation in this league yet. I believe other fans just see him as a bit of a modern day Ossie.

 

[Raziel]

I'll answer this in two ways:

Scenario 1) if i was am ambitious owner i'd almost certainly not have hired him in the first place as i'd have aimed higher. However, let's say i had hired him AND was ambitious i'd likely have saw how we finished 5th from being in a good position to get 4th but had fallen away badly and would have backed him more last summer. If i had done that, then he'd be in last chance saloon if Ange was still performing like he is now. As in, if no upturn in results by end of February then i'd be thinking of sacking him (and i wouldn't necessarily buy big in January as i'd have backed him last summer so would want to see the fruits of that labour first)


Scenario 2) In the current situation i think the owners would want to sack Ange because we are getting progressively worse in the 'big games' and also against the 'middle team' games. I'd have less and less to hang my faith on: very little tactical chess in said big games when you're up against opponents with similar or more resources. Under previous managers you saw at least some times when it would be a game of chess and we'd make the sum of our parts greater than the individuals, whereas this seems an alien concept now. However, i don';t think the owners can stomach doing that because it would just expose them more than ever: how they got to hire Ange in the first place (i'm sure he wasn't even their 2nd choice) and how they didn't really back him in the summer when the chips were down (probably, a lack of faith) and then the questions of their football knowledge/priorities open for discussion again...
Any other scenario, i think Ange would be a few games from being gone. He's performing less well than Nuno given Nuno had far less time

Mate, people are trying to engage you seriously

- No need to be snarky with the "if I was an ambitious owner", Levy/ENIC are, they have hired the best managers in the world, they pay some of best management salaries in the world, Poch, Jose, Conte (how much higher were you going to go? and I can just imagine your reaction if we went for Chelsea's manager?), they tried for Slot, think Amorim was in conversation as well, Nuno in hindsight wasn't the brick decision fans decided to make out. That is a different conversation than the self funded squad concerns.

- He got backed in summer, can we stop this brick? because you don't like the players Ange choose, or the the prioritization he made (everyone has a finite budget), does not equal he wasn't backed. Less than 5 days ago in a presser he was clear, he could have got another established player or two, but it would have meant potentially missing out on long term talent like Gray. His must have was Solanke, he got it.

To be serious with your questions

- The decisions to prioritize signings like Gray, Bergvall, Yang, commitments to Moore, Vuskovich to me always said this wasn't "for this season"
- The club (finally) has realized the squad needs an entire rebuild, we are about 2 years into, probably at least another 2 windows to see the full outcome
- Ange is a complete system manager (somewhat like Conte, his fudging midfield could only work with Bentancur), until you have the full team the results can be worse than sum (see Pep as ultimate example)
- These owners don't fudging care about egg on their face, they will fire managers (BMJ, Poch, Jose before a final), whenever they want.

To what I agree with/speculation

- Normally a Spurs manager in bottom half at Christmas would be gone, so why is he still here? 1/Still in all the cups (I think it's a big part of what's keeping him in role, and see second point), 2/Our best games show a ceiling we haven't seen in a long time, mutli-goal wins away against City, United, Villa, etc show when it works

- The bottom isn't endless though, in my opinion he's probably got until end of season, but stay in bottom half until February, will change.
- Ange also has to be telling the club internally a different story than his press conferences, conceding 6 or 7 goals is a very quick route to job loss at Spurs, he has to be convincing someone that there is adjustments, that in future we will learn.

Personally, the club has been extremely patient with Ange, it's up to him now to ensure the season doesn't keep unravelling, if it does and he loses his job it is on him, 100%. I still think January window will be an interesting insight into how far the club still believes in him.