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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

Bedfordspurs said:
Didn’t they finish second and were gonna win it if Gerrard didn’t slip ?
That is surely a team that challenged for the league
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Liverpool absolutely DID challenge; they only lost the league by 2 points.
I guess the point @Jurgen the German is making is that it can be said that ultimately that Rodgers team conceding way too manner goals for a challenger probably cost them in the end and that it's very rare to be a able to challenge for a title (let alone win it) if you are conceding an above number of goals.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I don’t no. Top 4 is more realistic.
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Most people on here seem reasonable enough actually and this is their hope/expectation. It's the melts on social media who seem to think we should be challenging the top teams and, to be fair, some of Ange's comments fuel that a bit.

If we're looking at top 4, we'll have results (and worse) like we had on Sunday. We've had them on the other occasions we finished 4th.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I don’t think you can blame them finishing 2nd solely on Gerrard slipping although it was funny. The Palace game was the one that done them in, 3-0 up and you end up drawing 3-3! Everton fans refer to that game as “Cristanbul”.
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Damn, i forgot about Crystalbul - an absolute microcosm of the point about ultimate lack of defensive solidity costing Liverpool eventually
 
fernadez said:
Think it's a bit rich to have a go at a non existant group of people who are calling for the manager to be sacked.

People, including myself have pointed out that his tactic on the evidence of a over a season has major vunerabilites. Outscoring the opposition is as polar as conceding less than the opposition, but jumping on Conte and Jose was deemed ok, even though I would argue at this stage of both of thier managerial tenures we were more solid at the back and creating more (yes we had Kane but we as a team created more goal scoring chances). Both of those two only went more defensive when they realised their teams were incapable of seeing out wins, up until that West Ham game at home with Jose we were great to watch.

Personally I don't see how, regardless of who we sign or how long he's in charge how they system as it's played will not give up high percentage chances. Watching City they give up exactly the same chances in the same way we do. They difference is the calibre of players they have, to tackle, save, score, control and respond to it. Unless we're taken over, we'll never have the same level of players.

I'm of the opinion that we can keep exactly the same philosophy, make minor adjustments and be a much better functioning unit because of it. Drop the line 10 yards, have on 1 full back push up, play Maddison/someone else higher up the pitch/have Romero move the ball quicker etc. When the manager comes out and repeatedly says nothing will change, this is the way, it's natural to have concerns because we want him to succeed. Seeing us control games between the penalty boxes but fail to work keepers but also give up 1v1's for an extended period of time should be worrying to everyone, because where is the evolution? How do we know managers are saying, just stay in shape lads, we'll break down attacks and hit them quick, plus they're prone to switching off so chances will comes.

Against Saudi Sportswashing Machine I saw tangible evidence that we've worked on attacking set pecies. We didn't score from every corner, but there was enough to be reassured that, ok we're evolving. If he's determined to play the high line for example, I don't think it's unreasonable to look and say, ok VDV is out and he's a big part of the system, let's protect the lads and drop the line 10 so Vic can sweep easier. Cuti wonders sometimes lads so this will also give us a bit of protection from that.

In the south where I sit, there has been nothing but support for Ange, not murmors of discontent, nothing. Just dissapointment when we struggle to get over the line. Nobody wants to start the manager merry go round again. The concerns voiced are from people backing the manager who want him to stay and think that maybe he's not giving himself the best chance of that happening.
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Very good post, especially the comparison to Jose and Conte at similar times in their tenure.
Like then, it is valid to ask questions about direction and patterns seen that are emerging..
 
DeanoAustin said:
As poor as Liverpool were defensively that year, and it was laughable at times (Palace game a perfect illustration), they conceded 50 goals. 11 less than us last year. And they scored 101 goals, 25 more than us last year.
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Very true, but the point was about whether a team that concedes a very high number of goals (for a title challenger) can ever be expected to actually win it (which i guess is also your point..)
 
glorygloryeze said:
Liverpool absolutely DID challenge; they only lost the league by 2 points.
I guess the point @Jurgen the German is making is that it can be said that ultimately that Rodgers team conceding way too manner goals for a challenger probably cost them in the end and that it's very rare to be a able to challenge for a title (let alone win it) if you are conceding an above number of goals.
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But that isn’t true for that team of course
Although you can clearly say their draw at palace was the issue and that was 3 goals IIRC

And just to confirm we’re on track to concede 38 goals at our current rate
 
Jurgen the German said:
I don’t think you can blame them finishing 2nd solely on Gerrard slipping although it was funny. The Palace game was the one that done them in, 3-0 up and you end up drawing 3-3! Everton fans refer to that game as “Cristanbul”.
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I loved it
The Chelsea slip too
What I’ll also add is that the reason city concede less than they should is that they constantly keep the opposition under pressure with the ball. Not because they alway defend well
 
glasgowspur said:
For me the big difference between our players and city players is mentality.
They have players who want to win at all costs, that's their sole focus.
We have players who are happy to win and disappointed to lose.
Some of our players are more concerned with stuff happening off the ball than how the play is developing.
Ange has already pointed this out and if some don't get it soon they won't be here long.
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I assume here you mean the stuff related to goading, ref backchat etc, because i for one would LOVE a few to be more concerned about marking or making movements off the ball lol
 
parklane1 said:
To be honest i think a title charge is above the team for a few years yet, my hopes are that we become more of a challenge for the top four and along the way win a trophy as its been too long since we have done that. IF we manage a pot or two then we can start thinking of a title challenge.
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Exactly, this thread is full of "I'm not criticizing/being negative but I'm criticizing/being negative" views, e.g. lets look at his record if we take away the good results .. literally wtf?

Reality? City, Pool and Arsenal exist, have much more established squads/systems with more key players

- That means the league is a long way off, even if we improve by margins of +15 points, +30 GD (e.g. -15 GA, +20GF) we would have been tied for 3rd, that's a massive fudging improvement needed for 2 league spots
- To get 4th, basically we either need to match that improvement above and/or beat off Chelsea, United, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Villa, Brighton for one fudging spot.

Fans are absolutely deluded, the game is rigged/fudged and the fact that we are here and have been here, (i.e. challenging for 4th for some 16 years now consistently) is actually an achievement, despite the addition of Chelsea, then City, then Saudi Sportswashing Machine as outright cheaters plus Villa, Brighton, West Ham all significantly spending (fudging Ipswich & Southampton have spent >100M this window)

So what has Ange achieved
- Football I actually want to watch, having watched the dross of Jose/Conte/Nuno, I get to see my team actually try to win every game, regardless of opponent, people brush over that but it's a big deal.
- Working with club, deadwood out, youth back on table, system that can provide continuity in the future
- 5th in first season (again, as context, Arteta had money and got 8th, 8th and 5th, so Ange matched Arteta's 3rd season result already)

What are my hopes/expectations?
- We go for a cup, no guarantees but I hope Ange is smart enough to know when those little prioritizations need be made, get that monkey off the club's back and it buys a lot of credit, kills a lot of stupid narrative (although it will quickly be "well, was it an important trophy" brick)
- 5th with outside shot at 4th (injuries and Solanke's settling in will have a huge part of it, plus how well others do)
- We continue to add to squad next season and push from there

And the response will be ... I have no ambition

Angry fans are angry because they have unrealistic expectations (based on what football looks like today, plus Spurs historically). In my opinion unless Spurs is sold (in which case you might get a Chelsea or United type ownership, so fudge knows what that gets you) or ENIC manages to get partial investors and leverages that for a significant (300M+) investment in the squad, it won't change from the above.
 
Raziel said:
Exactly, this thread is full of "I'm not criticizing/being negative but I'm criticizing/being negative" views, e.g. lets look at his record if we take away the good results .. literally wtf?

Reality? City, Pool and Arsenal exist, have much more established squads/systems with more key players

- That means the league is a long way off, even if we improve by margins of +15 points, +30 GD (e.g. -15 GA, +20GF) we would have been tied for 3rd, that's a massive fudging improvement needed for 2 league spots
- To get 4th, basically we either need to match that improvement above and/or beat off Chelsea, United, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Villa, Brighton for one fudging spot.

Fans are absolutely deluded, the game is rigged/fudged and the fact that we are here and have been here, (i.e. challenging for 4th for some 16 years now consistently) is actually an achievement, despite the addition of Chelsea, then City, then Saudi Sportswashing Machine as outright cheaters plus Villa, Brighton, West Ham all significantly spending (fudging Ipswich & Southampton have spent >100M this window)

So what has Ange achieved
- Football I actually want to watch, having watched the dross of Jose/Conte/Nuno, I get to see my team actually try to win every game, regardless of opponent, people brush over that but it's a big deal.
- Working with club, deadwood out, youth back on table, system that can provide continuity in the future
- 5th in first season (again, as context, Arteta had money and got 8th, 8th and 5th, so Ange matched Arteta's 3rd season result already)

What are my hopes/expectations?
- We go for a cup, no guarantees but I hope Ange is smart enough to know when those little prioritizations need be made, get that monkey off the club's back and it buys a lot of credit, kills a lot of stupid narrative (although it will quickly be "well, was it an important trophy" brick)
- 5th with outside shot at 4th (injuries and Solanke's settling in will have a huge part of it, plus how well others do)
- We continue to add to squad next season and push from there

And the response will be ... I have no ambition

Angry fans are angry because they have unrealistic expectations (based on what football looks like today, plus Spurs historically). In my opinion unless Spurs is sold (in which case you might get a Chelsea or United type ownership, so fudge knows what that gets you) or ENIC manages to get partial investors and leverages that for a significant (300M+) investment in the squad, it won't change from the above.
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Out of interest how does this current situation differ from Poch's at the same stage?
I'm curious to know if your general outlook on how you judge where Spurs are (and how the manager is doing) has changed, because i'm pretty sure IIRC that you were very harsh on Poch at this same stage (i.e. after the first few games of Poch's second season).


Genuinely curious here
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Did Arteta show clear improvement?
I mean their fans wanted him gone second season, they finished 8th and out of Europe. They actually went backwards by standing still. And that was despite ah big an outstanding start

What he has had the benefit of is time
Same thing Klopp got
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That was Arteta's first full season (I think the season before he came in with about a third of the season gone).
 
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