Vlad Chiriches

[Rossi22]

Re: Official - Chiriches

Vertonghen and Dawson actually both had the same aerial duel win rate last season - 61%.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Official - Chiriches

Of course Dawson is slower -- but Dawson is, at the moment, the only centre-back we have who can head the ball. You need at least one in this league, coz if you don't...well, you saw the West Ham league Cup game didn't you? Managers from big Sam to Jose would exploit such an obvious weakness in their opponent.

Pair up Vertonghen and Chiriches and watch teams just smash high balls into the centre of our defence and eat us for breakfast with very simple football.

Vertonghen is better in the air than Chiriches and Capoue. He's not the strongest, but honestly Dawson is no Vidic, Terry or Hangeland in the air either. We'll see if the two are partnered.

As it is, most teams should be smart enough to realize that if you have one "Dawson" and one "Chiriches" you get your target man close to Chiriches and you lump it in that direction. Changing Dawson for Vertonghen at that point doesn't change things all that much. It's also about how the rest of the team acts when that initial header is lost, the positions they take up, the covering runs they make.

 

[the dza]

Re: Official - Chiriches

I thought we were talking about his pace?

Dawson and Vertonghen is an alright partnership to me. Vertonghen is clearly our best defender at the moment imo, when he is fit and back playing as a centre back anyone who wants to play centre back is competing to play next to him.

Kaboul and Dawson has never looked good so I'm not sure why you would like a Kaboul type player paired with Dawson. Dawson has his strengths and weaknesses, amongst his weaknesses is that he seems to need a top class player next to him to work well. Players like King, Naybet, Woodgate, Gallas and Vertonghen have all managed to make the player next to them look better. Dawson has needed someone next to him to make him better. He hasn't been the leader or organizer that we've wanted him to be, he hasn't been the player we could trust to help bring someone else along to integrate and get better.

As for Chiriches, he also has his strengths and weaknesses. He's still adjusting to the league and he's still to play next to Vertonghen - our best central defender and the only central defender we have that currently seems capable of making the players around him better. At the very least I'm going to withhold my judgement on Vlad until he's had over a full season for us, but to me he looks very promising at this point.

You are right, a Kaboul type isn't ideal with Dawson and would be much better partnered with Vertonghen. Bassong was a good partner for him, he dropped off and had enough pace to tidy up, whilst Dawson went and did his thing by attacking the ball. That was a good partnership, with 2 fairly limited, but complimentary defenders.


Centre-back partnerships: 1 defender to attack the ball, 1 defender to drop off a bit and clean up any mess.

Terry-Carvallho
Vidic-Ferdinand
Kaboul-King
Dawson-Bassong (did very well when we got 4th first time around).

The 2nd player in the pair goes about his business with either pace (Bassong) positional sense (Carvallo) or both (Ferdinand and King at their very best). Vertonghen falls into the 2nd category of centre-half imo, but he is quite slow to turn, so would be best with a mobile 'stopper' next to him (more of a peak-Kaboul than a Dawson).

Chiriches can only ever be the 2nd type of centre-half. What I am saying is, he isn't fast enough to take up crap positions (which he is doing right now) whereas someone like Bassong just had good pace and was quite timid with his play. Timid was problematic sometimes, but overall it meant he was a good partner for Dawson (who is the total opposite, attacks the ball with relish but slow as all f**k). So we need Vlad to up his positional game. But can we afford him the time to learn this, when our aim is Champions League football? Maybe we bought him a couple of years too early. He isn't ready at the minute, imo.

 

[the dza]

Re: Official - Chiriches

Vertonghen and Dawson actually both had the same aerial duel win rate last season - 61%.

That might be true, but I suspect Dawson went and dealt with the tougher opponents as often as possible (more than Vertonghen). At least, he should have been doing that.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Official - Chiriches

That might be true, but I suspect Dawson went and dealt with the tougher opponents as often as possible (more than Vertonghen). At least, he should have been doing that.

Yes, for set pieces. But if opponents weren't being idiots about it they should move their target men towards Vertonghen before hoofing it knowing full well that the two of them would never swap sides, leaving Vertonghen having to deal with the tougher opponents in that phase of play.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Official - Chiriches

It's not the pass we are talking about, it's the opponent that gets the pass... Most of the times it's Dawson man who gets the pass and produces a problem to our goal. Dawson is just like, ok this man is going into Vlad's part of the field it's his responsability now... NO follow you're man and make sure he doesn't get the ball !!

Did you watch the game today?

 

[the dza]

Re: Official - Chiriches

Yes, for set pieces. But if opponents weren't being idiots about it they should move their target men towards Vertonghen before hoofing it knowing full well that the two of them would never swap sides, leaving Vertonghen having to deal with the tougher opponents in that phase of play.

If the ball is in the air, then there is time for the more dominant centre-half to attack it, surely? Otherwise, why would teams bother with the likes of Terry, Vidic etc?

"Nah, sorry John, you ain't playing today. Turns out their target man will just go and sit himself on Carvallho, so having you on the pitch is a waste of time mate. Have the day off, try not to shag anybody's wife."

 

[IulianSteaua]

Re: Official - Chiriches

Of course Dawson is slower -- but Dawson is, at the moment, the only centre-back we have who can head the ball. You need at least one in this league, coz if you don't...well, you saw the West Ham league Cup game didn't you? Managers from big Sam to Jose would exploit such an obvious weakness in their opponent.

Pair up Vertonghen and Chiriches and watch teams just smash high balls into the centre of our defence and eat us for breakfast with very simple football.

Don't you think I don't know how Dawson can help a team. I'm not bashing Dawson in the idea that he has no qualities. Of course he has, he with Kaboul are the best headers in the defense, he can tackle decent as well. But in what we were talking about, dawson is poor.

 

[IulianSteaua]

Re: Official - Chiriches

This pass?

That's down to Dawson ... not Vlad. Dawson's man, he needs to cover behind and Chiriches will then in turn crossover to cover for Dawson. What happens though is that Dawson either leaves him or is too slow to react/keep up and it just looks like it's Vlad's fault because the ball and man are now on his side.

EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN... GREAT IDEA Rossi !

 

[IulianSteaua]

Re: Official - Chiriches

Did you watch the game today?

Yes watched it with some friends.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Official - Chiriches

If the ball is in the air, then there is time for the more dominant centre-half to attack it, surely? Otherwise, why would teams bother with the likes of Terry, Vidic etc?

"Nah, sorry John, you ain't playing today. Turns out their target man will just go and sit himself on Carvallho, so having you on the pitch is a waste of time mate. Have the day off, try not to shag anybody's wife."

For some balls, yes. For most, no. Imo.

How often do you see Dawson for example come across well into the left centre back's area to challenge for a header? He certainly didn't today when Palace were lumping the ball towards Chiriches/Cameron Jerome as far as I could see.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Official - Chiriches

Do you think that could have something to do with Chiriches playing with Rose as his fullback whereas Dawson has the (imo) much superior Walker on his side?

Chiriches had a really tough first half today. One of his first up against a striker like that in the PL I think and he was second best throughout, got bested by Cameron Jerome in a way that was frankly scary. He did much better in the second half though, will have to learn quickly against players like that I think if he is to get a regular starting spot for us.

I don't think playing with Rose has anything to do with it tbh.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Official - Chiriches

Yes watched it with some friends.

and you missed the part where that pass happened again, and Chamakh completely mugged Chiriches off? beating him for pace?

Are you saying it was Dawson's fault today?

 

[djp82]

Re: Official - Chiriches

Iirc it was Vlad that went on a little wonder upfield with the ball and lost it and it left plenty of room for them to counter and that's where the penalty came from. Looked a bit bullied again today in the air but he's getting there.

 

[Lilywhite]

Re: Official - Chiriches

I praised him after the game against Man United in which he was very good. But...

I'm still undecided over his merits. It's harsh to judge defenders when they come over cos they need to acclimatise to the pace and physicality that this country require. He's certainly quick on his feet but he's also weak (was outmuscled a lot today by Palace's front two, who aren't all that in truth) and positionally very suspect indeed.

Overall though I do think there more positive signs than negative ones. It will almost certainly come down to the manager/managers he plays under at the Lane to determine how much of a success or failure is. He has a lot of raw qualities but will need excellent coaching to mould in to a top allround defender at this level. Jury still out.

 

[IulianSteaua]

Re: Official - Chiriches

I don't think playing with Rose has anything to do with it tbh.

Of course it does, you attack on the part the opponent is weakest in defense. Walker is a power house in comparison to whoever played on the left this season. Most of us hoped with the return on Rose, that the problem with LB would be gone, but Rose has been poor since his return and opponents try to exploit that. So many more attacks on the Rose part.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Official - Chiriches

Of course it does, you attack on the part the opponent is weakest in defense. Walker is a power house in comparison to whoever played on the left this season. Most of us hoped with the return on Rose, that the problem with LB would be gone, but Rose has been poor since his return and opponents try to exploit that. So many more attacks on the Rose part.

but you said it was Dawson's fault anyway? so what has playing next to Rose got to do with anything when, according to you, it's Dawson making the mistakes not Chiriches.

Btw please answer my previous post before answering this one.

 

[IulianSteaua]

Re: Official - Chiriches

Iirc it was Vlad that went on a little wonder upfield with the ball and lost it and it left plenty of room for them to counter and that's where the penalty came from. Looked a bit bullied again today in the air but he's getting there.

That looked to me like a clumsy challenge from Dembele really...

 

[IulianSteaua]

Re: Official - Chiriches

but you said it was Dawson's fault anyway? so what has playing next to Rose got to do with anything when, according to you, it's Dawson making the mistakes not Chiriches.

Btw please answer my previous post before answering this one.

This does not exclude the Dawson fault. More attacks on the the Rose side is a fact and a logical choise. The picture shown by Rossi is exactly what happens most of time and that is Dawson's fault.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Official - Chiriches

This does not exclude the Dawson fault. More attacks on the the Rose side is a fact and a logical choise. The picture shown by Rossi is exactly what happens most of time and that is Dawson's fault.

i'm starting to think you didn't watch today's game tbh.