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Trans stuff

Danishfurniturelover said:
More the whole sports jacket over jumpers,

Man I'm a cool mother fudger, I fly


What about cycling shirts and lycra, wish I knew how to upload pictures so you could see what I'm wearing now.

And yes they are bright colours, haha. I'm off to cycle to Chichester, probably catch the train back
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Give St. Richard my regards.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
More the whole sports jacket over jumpers,

Man I'm a cool mother fudger, I fly


What about cycling shirts and lycra, wish I knew how to upload pictures so you could see what I'm wearing now.

And yes they are bright colours, haha. I'm off to cycle to Chichester, probably catch the train back
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Why don't you see blokes with leather patches in their jacket elbows or turnups in trousers?
 
LutonSpurs said:
When has this happened?
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Isla Blair convicted double rapist.
Katie dowalanaski (sp) convicted child abuser.
The person whose name I can't remember that earlier this year dressed as a woman to abducted a schoolgirl leading to a two day police hunt.
Three in Scotland in the last three years.
All claim to be trans.
I don't believe any of them.
 
glasgowspur said:
Isla Blair convicted double rapist.
Katie dowalanaski (sp) convicted child abuser.
The person whose name I can't remember that earlier this year dressed as a woman to abducted a schoolgirl leading to a two day police hunt.
Three in Scotland in the last three years.
All claim to be trans.
I don't believe any of them.
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Sick individuals whose claimed gender is unrelated to the crime, men and women have committed similar crimes too.

Isla Bryson’s convictions were before her transition too I believe.

A bad guy in a dress is not justification for the intolerance the real trans community is currently dealing with.
 
glasgowspur said:
If you're trans it's not.
If you are pretending to be trans to abuse people or escape punishment for abusing people it is.
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I'm not sure I fully understand you on this one. Trans people are still held accountable by the law same as cisgendered people. As far as I'm aware you don't get a pardon if you announce that you were born in the wrong body during the trial.

If you're talking about those who would find life easier in a the opposite gender prison so choose to play the trans card I get it. I'm not sure how common that is but yes if you have a bloke who committed a load of violent crime and would just rather be in a prison full of ladies that's not on. I guess it's not always possible to tell whether somebody is being sincere or not, and certain approaches could end up being abused.
 
Baleforce said:
Sick individuals whose claimed gender is unrelated to the crime, men and women have committed similar crimes too.

Isla Bryson’s convictions were before her transition too I believe.

A bad guy in a dress is not justification for the intolerance the real trans community is currently dealing with.
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I totally agree with your last sentence, just as IMHO attributing these crimes to people claiming they are trans does absolutely nothing to help genuine trans people.
In fact it helps fuel the transphobia
 
spurspinter1 said:
I'm not sure I fully understand you on this one. Trans people are still held accountable by the law same as cisgendered people. As far as I'm aware you don't get a pardon if you announce that you were born in the wrong body during the trial.

If you're talking about those who would find life easier in a the opposite gender prison so choose to play the trans card I get it. I'm not sure how common that is but yes if you have a bloke who committed a load of violent crime and would just rather be in a prison full of ladies that's not on. I guess it's not always possible to tell whether somebody is being sincere or not, and certain approaches could end up being abused.
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Isla Blairs lawyer tried to argue that they could not be considered a rapist because the definition of rapes is penetration without consent, as a trans women they could not penetrate.
Katie dowalanaski served some of their sentence and was released because the Scottish prison service was not suitable/able to deal with them.

It's a very emotive subject, I absolutely understand that, a trans persons rights and ability to lead the life they want to lead should be protected.
That's a principal that applies to anyone, everyone and especially the vulnerable and marginalised.

However I believe that there are some out there that are taking advantage of what they see are loop holes.
Incidents of Trans hate went up during the Isla Blair, which as I find it very difficult to believe he is genuinely trans I find hard to stomach.
 
glasgowspur said:
Isla Blairs lawyer tried to argue that they could not be considered a rapist because the definition of rapes is penetration without consent, as a trans women they could not penetrate.
Katie dowalanaski served some of their sentence and was released because the Scottish prison service was not suitable/able to deal with them.

It's a very emotive subject, I absolutely understand that, a trans persons rights and ability to lead the life they want to lead should be protected.
That's a principal that applies to anyone, everyone and especially the vulnerable and marginalised.

However I believe that there are some out there that are taking advantage of what they see are loop holes.
Incidents of Trans hate went up during the Isla Blair, which as I find it very difficult to believe he is genuinely trans I find hard to stomach.
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Nicola Sturgeon’s refusal to say if trans women were women cost her her job. Prisons, hospitals, schools and sport are arenas where trans people’s presence should absolutely be allowed but there needs to be a sensible debate about it. And I don’t think some the trans lobbies do the trans community any favours at times. I completely understand the lobbies have to fight their corner in a robust way but I think the way they act sometimes has the opposite effect on people and turns people off rather than creating allies.
 
glasgowspur said:
Isla Blairs lawyer tried to argue that they could not be considered a rapist because the definition of rapes is penetration without consent, as a trans women they could not penetrate.
Katie dowalanaski served some of their sentence and was released because the Scottish prison service was not suitable/able to deal with them.

It's a very emotive subject, I absolutely understand that, a trans persons rights and ability to lead the life they want to lead should be protected.
That's a principal that applies to anyone, everyone and especially the vulnerable and marginalised.

However I believe that there are some out there that are taking advantage of what they see are loop holes.
Incidents of Trans hate went up during the Isla Blair, which as I find it very difficult to believe he is genuinely trans I find hard to stomach.
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Hmm, I'm not familiar with the cases but in particular the lawyers defense thing seems like it might be an overly simplified ragebait summary. For a start trans women can have penises but also, if said person no longer has one but raped someone when they did, it not being there anymore isn't relevant to the action. It'd be like if you punched someone and they fell and hit their head on the curb and died, but in between that incident and the trial you had the hand amputated, it wouldn't change what happened. I might have got the wrong end of the stick technicality wise but if that defense stood up that's a problem with the lawyer and the system.

As for the prison service not being suitable, a lot of nonces / abusers of either sex get done in whilst serving time, pedophiles aren't let off because prison might not be safe / suitable for them. So again if something like that has happened it's a problem with the system for sure.

Absolutely agree with what's in bold, but as the rest of my post suggests, I remain unconvinced of the notion that people are getting let off relatively scott free of punishment for serious crimes because they're transgendered. Obviously if what you've said is exactly how it went down then it makes no sense, it's hard to see both how and why that would be the case, but to my mind just seems a bit culture war esque.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Nicola Sturgeon’s refusal to say if trans women were women cost her her job. Prisons, hospitals, schools and sport are arenas where trans people’s presence should absolutely be allowed but there needs to be a sensible debate about it. And I don’t think some the trans lobbies do the trans community any favours at times. I completely understand the lobbies have to fight their corner in a robust way but I think the way they act sometimes has the opposite effect on people and turns people off rather than creating allies.
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Sturgeon is a loon and was always a loon hiding behind a very thin veneer of media spin.
As often happens when politicians begin to believe their own hype she stopped listening to advice and began to think she was invincible. The parallel with thatcher is so obvious and absolutely hilarious.
She attached herself to causes, spout her wisdom and would brook no argument as to the sense in those arguments.
She painted herself into a corner with the trans issue and refused to listen to anyone else. It wasn't the trans issue per set that her her job, if it hadn't been that it would have been something else, it was because she stopped listening to what she was being told and basically said you are all wrong and I am right. Her carefully built image of humility was crumbling and she got out before it was destroyed.
 
spurspinter1 said:
Hmm, I'm not familiar with the cases but in particular the lawyers defense thing seems like it might be an overly simplified ragebait summary. For a start trans women can have penises but also, if said person no longer has one but raped someone when they did, it not being there anymore isn't relevant to the action. It'd be like if you punched someone and they fell and hit their head on the curb and died, but in between that incident and the trial you had the hand amputated, it wouldn't change what happened. I might have got the wrong end of the stick technicality wise but if that defense stood up that's a problem with the lawyer and the system.

As for the prison service not being suitable, a lot of nonces / abusers of either sex get done in whilst serving time, pedophiles aren't let off because prison might not be safe / suitable for them. So again if something like that has happened it's a problem with the system for sure.

Absolutely agree with what's in bold, but as the rest of my post suggests, I remain unconvinced of the notion that people are getting let off relatively scott free of punishment for serious crimes because they're transgendered. Obviously if what you've said is exactly how it went down then it makes no sense, it's hard to see both how and why that would be the case, but to my mind just seems a bit culture war esque.
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You are correct, a lot of it does not make sense.
I'm not going any further with this, the cases are out there if you want to dig into it. My views and opinions have been laid out and explained, going on I feel i run the risk of looking like a zealot, which I don't think I am.


Thanks for engaging in a civil manner, I don't always express myself well it's been good to have a reasonable discussion.
 
LutonSpurs said:
People can be what the eff they want. Interestingly I have never met anyone oppressed by a trans person, so much of the hate is based on whispered anecdotes. Let them be
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I think most of the population are very on board with that.

I think with this debate though there are 2 or 3 very specific nuances, where freedoms becomes a genuine zero sum game:

First is in sport. Basically you can't have inclusion and fairness at the same time. Anyone who has gone through puberty as male, will have a substantial physical advantage over all other females in sport. In contact sports this can become a safety issue, as well as a fairness one.

The other is safe spaces (toilets and changing rooms). The concern here seems to be the difference between diagnosed gender dysmorphia and self-identification to be able to use these. It's probably not even trans people who would abuse this, more just tinkled blokes who spot a shorter queue and decide to self identify for 30 seconds. But for women this is a genuine safeguarding concern.

There's also the issue of puberty blockers. If you don't use them early enough, there's no point, but then how old should a child be to be allowed to decide to undergo the treatment?

But generally, if those fairly minor issues (amplified by the culture warriors, but actually fairly minor) are the sticking ones, and all but the helpless are cool with everything else, that's actually not a bad place for society to be at.
 
glasgowspur said:
You are correct, a lot of it does not make sense.
I'm not going any further with this, the cases are out there if you want to dig into it. My views and opinions have been laid out and explained, going on I feel i run the risk of looking like a zealot, which I don't think I am.


Thanks for engaging in a civil manner, I don't always express myself well it's been good to have a reasonable discussion.
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Likewise, nothing you've suggested or spoken about suggesting any zealotry or bigotry or anything not that I'm an expert of judging what is or isn't. If anything, what you've brought up just shows that the legal system is a bit of a mess but as you say to fully understand it I'd have to look in to it myself. I know first hand from doing jury service it's often just what a bunch of people reckon based on verbal accounts from and decisions are made due to people just wanting to get back to work - It's pretty scary when you think about it!

I think people being concerned about these things like those who would pretend to be trans for either criminal reasons or wanting to gain an advantage in sports are entitled to ask questions of it . South Park did the MMA / wrestling trans issue in a not exactly subtle way, but it was on point.
 
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