Tottenham vs The Scum

[Bedfordspurs]

Took this photo yesterday… well a vid of us singing
but here is a snapshot for a simple reason really. We had a Spurs fan and I saw a few more, in turban.
And the reason I mention it is because when I was much younger my dads mate Tarzan who was a great footballer was a massive Spurs fan. He also wore a turban. I remember inviting him to Spurs with us as a naive 10 year old. He politely told me he would live to come and see Hoddle play but couldn’t because of his “head gear”.
So for me seeing the changes in the fans 30 plus years later it’s fudging brilliant
I also saw more women at the game yesterday than I had in a while… brilliant
The more diversity we have, the more growth we have, the better the club and fans will be.

and I’ll add if anyone knows the chap I apologise in advance. It was a video of Spurs fans singing.

 

[thfcsteff]

Wait a minute you have no clue about me and instead of trying to be some sort of superhero PC police you are hovering in and out of the convo between DT, Bradford without actually saying much.

When I said I feel sorry for muslims ... get some perspective instead of being such a little soy boy and assuming you know what I am talking about. Look at the poor people fleeing the taliban for example ... now it may not be to your liking but something in Islam has created the taliban and the people as in the civilians as in the muslims in that region will have to suffer the lack of freedom they currently have.

When I say I feel sorry for muslims I maybe looking at it from a western perspective and thinking how people in Saudi are dictated to and how they live their life all because of some prehistoric rules in sharia.

Wherever sharia law is, muslims suffer that's my opinion, don't like it not my problem.

Take a moment and ask yourself HOW Talibans/muslim fundamentalists even found themselves in the first place? They get oxygen because the west has fudged with the region so much since the 50s (with accent on the the last 40) that people have been left desperate. Look at Iran, look at Iraq, think about what they WERE before the likes of Roosevelt and the propping of Hussein initially (two different passages of time)...NO-ONE wants extremism. Try to imagine a Britain where someone had come in and taken up strategic positions on the pretext of 'helping', only to then get out of dodge when they'd had enough, not once, twice but three times! Yeah, I think you'd find some Christian Fundamentalists risisng. In the US they're already rising .

Religious texts offer interpretation for lunatics. That is clear. The proportion of people who migrate to the lunatic areas of said-texts has little to do with the words themselves, and much much more to do with living conditions and life stability. And if people feel theirs is constantly being fudged with, unfortunately those bastards get a foothold and fudge EVERYONE.

FWIW I think Saudi Arabia and Sharia Law are awful. But I don't live there and don't choose to.

 

[thfcsteff]

I dont really think you actually are posting in good faith if I'm honest due to previous snide comments. Unlike @Bradford and to a certain extent @DT.

But ill entertain you while I get myself to work ... I know enough history to have a conversation about pre Islamic Arabia and Middle East, and know how Islam spread, what happened to say zoroastrians in Iran, Khomeini etc. My university class mates were from Iran, having studied at NYU.

Was in Iran for months at a time on three different occasions within the last decade due to work.

I dont know what you are expecting from trying to give me a history lesson coz save yourself the trouble I've read quite a bit and like I said have had Persian mates and was banging a Persian girl during my university years ... now that's the history I want to talk about hah. But bored with this now so I'll just wrap up DT and befords requests and move on.

Yes, it was in good faith. I WILL say I think you tried to ignore the question and hope it'd go away, so I wanted to get an answer from you.

you're not that entertaining to be fair @Gazza , sorry.

I was asking you a few questions; where's the history lesson.

'...banging a Persian girl...' eh? Classy.

My father was Iranian.

You're not bored, you're still here hahahahahahah, nice try though.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Take a moment and ask yourself HOW Talibans/muslim fundamentalists even found themselves in the first place? They get oxygen because the west has fudged with the region so much since the 50s (with accent on the the last 40) that people have been left desperate. Look at Iran, look at Iraq, think about what they WERE before the likes of Roosevelt and the propping of Hussein initially (two different passages of time)...NO-ONE wants extremism. Try to imagine a Britain where someone had come in and taken up strategic positions on the pretext of 'helping', only to then get out of dodge when they'd had enough, not once, twice but three times! Yeah, I think you'd find some Christian Fundamentalists risisng. In the US they're already rising .

Religious texts offer interpretation for lunatics. That is clear. The proportion of people who migrate to the lunatic areas of said-texts has little to do with the words themselves, and much much more to do with living conditions and life stability. And if people feel theirs is constantly being fudged with, unfortunately those bastards get a foothold and fudge EVERYONE.

FWIW I think Saudi Arabia and Sharia Law are awful. But I don't live there and don't choose to.

Just look at Afghanistan and our history there
It’s like the Hokey Cokey

 

[thfcsteff]

Just look at Afghanistan and our history there
It’s like the Hokey Cokey

Exactly. Sadly, there will be a whole new wave of extremism, and anyone who thinks it is all about Islam has their head in the sand.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Building on Steffs post. The Taliban are directly related to western intervention. Afghanistan now, can be traced back to the US funding the mujahideen to fight the Soviets.

The US trained and armed the Afghan insurgency who after billions and a few years defeated the Soviet Union. From then onwards the country has been in various states of instability and war. People who used to know how to farm the land have spent decades fighting and only know how to load a Kalashnikov or arrange an ambush. They have exceptional knowledge of guerrilla warfare which stems from defeating the Soviet Union with the US’ money and weapons. The same knowledge and weapons was then used by the Taliban and ironically was used to fight the US army.

Similar occurred in Libya, Iraq and Syria. It is the most tragic pattern of western intervention over the last 50 years where hundreds of thousands of innocent people have lost their lives and been subjected to lawless tyrannical violence. To the western audiences watching the news it’s all bearded Muslims causing the problems. To those that understand most of the problems are western in origin; with the Christian Right in America particularly involved in ‘the good fight’ against the commies. The film Charlie Wilson’s War touches on some of this for anyone interested.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[thfcsteff]

Building on Steffs post. The Taliban are directly related to western intervention. Afghanistan now, can be traced back to the US funding the mujahideen to fight the Soviets.

The US trained and armed the Afghan insurgency who after billions and a few years defeated the Soviet Union. From then onwards the country has been in various states of instability and war. People who used to know how to farm the land have spent decades fighting and only know how to load a Kalashnikov or arrange an ambush. They have exceptional knowledge of guerrilla warfare which stems from defeating the Soviet Union with the US’ money and weapons. The same knowledge and weapons was then used by the Taliban and ironically was used to fight the US army.

Similar occurred in Libya, Iraq and Syria. It is the most tragic pattern of western intervention over the last 50 years where hundreds of thousands of innocent people have lost their lives and been subjected to lawless tyrannical violence. To the western audiences watching the news it’s all bearded Muslims causing the problems. To those that understand most of the problems are western in origin; with the Christian Right in America particularly involved in ‘the good fight’ against the commies. The film Charlie Wilson’s War touches on some of this for anyone interested.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Yup.
Sadly, it seems that this history has to be stated on this site every decade or so. I clearly remember a previous 'era' where such exchanges were had.

Our desertion of the Afghan people (repeatedly) is disgraceful. It is fine to say that Afghan Forces should be able to defend themselves, but that is frankly not realistic and never was. It takes decades to fortify an army. The Taliban has played this very smartly, in the sense of not attacking UN/US forces for several months up too May. False security. The biggest problem was the stating of a May deadline by the previous admin, albeit I should be clear and say that I think Biden could've easily reversed this and stated there would be no withdrawal. Given how that country has been used over and over, there is clearly a debt we need to recognize in helping them beyond when WE think is right.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Exactly. Sadly, there will be a whole new wave of extremism, and anyone who thinks it is all about Islam has their head in the sand.

It is and it isn’t of course. It’s one version of Islam enforcing their beliefs. But actually killing other Islamic people in doing so
But that’s not the point as you say. It’s more about every fudger in history wanting their stake in the ground in that country for some bizarre reason which causes the hatred for some fl them against the “west”

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yup.
Sadly, it seems that this history has to be stated on this site every decade or so. I clearly remember a previous 'era' where such exchanges were had.

Our desertion of the Afghan people (repeatedly) is disgraceful. It is fine to say that Afghan Forces should be able to defend themselves, but that is frankly not realistic and never was. It takes decades to fortify an army. The Taliban has played this very smartly, in the sense of not attacking UN/US forces for several months up too May. False security. The biggest problem was the stating of a May deadline by the previous admin, albeit I should be clear and say that I think Biden could've easily reversed this and stated there would be no withdrawal. Given how that country has been used over and over, there is clearly a debt we need to recognize in helping them beyond when WE think is right.

I think it’s horrendous
One thing to stick our oar in and do what we did
Another to abandon the people we kind helped but didn’t…. Talking to some colleagues today they are gutted and quite emotional about it as they know what they left behind

 

[SpurMeUp]

Yup.
Sadly, it seems that this history has to be stated on this site every decade or so. I clearly remember a previous 'era' where such exchanges were had.

Our desertion of the Afghan people (repeatedly) is disgraceful. It is fine to say that Afghan Forces should be able to defend themselves, but that is frankly not realistic and never was. It takes decades to fortify an army. The Taliban has played this very smartly, in the sense of not attacking UN/US forces for several months up too May. False security. The biggest problem was the stating of a May deadline by the previous admin, albeit I should be clear and say that I think Biden could've easily reversed this and stated there would be no withdrawal. Given how that country has been used over and over, there is clearly a debt we need to recognize in helping them beyond when WE think is right.

No clever human has yet figured out how to create stability in a country with a power vacuum. Yet the west consistently removes stable regiems and replaces them with chaos. Lybia and Syria are failed states after our clever interventions. Maybe ironically, the colonial system is the best way, and closer to what you're advocating. Long-term western control to build up the infrastructure and systems. Afganistan was one of the most progressive muslim countries in the 70s with Universities and mixed educated. Empires - the US and the Soviet Union - have a lot to answer for. Though under the soviets there was stability, good education for women and men. Whenever rich empires play games with smaller nations the outcome is people suffering. Syria where the proxy war drew in the UK, the US, Israel, Iran, Saudis, Turkey, Russia and others all trying to influence the outcome, the consequences are devastating. 500,000 dead. 25,000 children killed. A million people displaced from their homes. etc Asad is still in power, and thank godness he is, because at least Syria has some hope of stability rather than Lybia which is a lawless mess (Syria isn't a great deal better with fighting still going on too).

Isis in Iraq a direct consequence of Allied intervention. We took over and housed all the fundamentalists fighters in a comfy jail where they networked and planned their Isis future which was easy in the power vacuum we left. With such wanton destruction, its no wonder western institutions are quite happy for a narrative of Islam striking fear into populations to persist. Because the truth is far more ugly and requires self-reflection that we're not inclined to admit, let alone undertake.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No clever human has yet figured out how to create stability in a country with a power vacuum. Yet the west consistently removes stable regiems and replaces them with chaos. Lybia and Syria are failed states after our clever interventions. Maybe ironically, the colonial system is the best way, and closer to what you're advocating. Long-term western control to build up the infrastructure and systems. Afganistan was one of the most progressive muslim countries in the 70s with Universities and mixed educated. Empires - the US and the Soviet Union - have a lot to answer for. Though under the soviets there was stability, good education for women and men. Whenever rich empires play games with smaller nations the outcome is people suffering. Syria where the proxy war drew in the UK, the US, Israel, Iran, Saudis, Turkey, Russia and others all trying to influence the outcome, the consequences are devastating. 500,000 dead. 25,000 children killed. A million people displaced from their homes. etc Asad is still in power, and thank godness he is, because at least Syria has some hope of stability rather than Lybia which is a lawless mess (Syria isn't a great deal better with fighting still going on too).

Isis in Iraq a direct consequence of Allied intervention. We took over and housed all the fundamentalists fighters in a comfy jail where they networked and planned their Isis future which was easy in the power vacuum we left. With such wanton destruction, its no wonder western institutions are quite happy for a narrative of Islam striking fear into populations to persist. Because the truth is far more ugly and requires self-reflection that we're not inclined to admit, let alone undertake.

That’s the scariest truth

 

[kendoddsdadsdog]

The Power of Nightmares, Adam Curtis’ magnificent documentary series on the myriad ways the west is responsible for the devastating situation outlined in the great posts above, is highly recommended if anyone wants to educate themselves further.

Almost 20 years old and still, unfortunately, entirely relevant today. It’s always available on BBC iPlayer.

 

[LutonSpurs]

It's a mess in Afghan. But the brutal nature of the Taliban and the Northern Alliance and the numerous warlords is part and party of a culture created by endless war from hungry super powers. They are not nice and the future won't be nice. Some introspection is needed by the architects of their plight.

 

[thfcsteff]

It's a mess in Afghan. But the brutal nature of the Taliban and the Northern Alliance and the numerous warlords is part and party of a culture created by endless war from hungry super powers. They are not nice and the future won't be nice. Some introspection is needed by the architects of their plight.

It is the truth!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It's a mess in Afghan. But the brutal nature of the Taliban and the Northern Alliance and the numerous warlords is part and party of a culture created by endless war from hungry super powers. They are not nice and the future won't be nice. Some introspection is needed by the architects of their plight.

Yep
That’s the issue

 

[thfcsteff]

It's a mess in Afghan. But the brutal nature of the Taliban and the Northern Alliance and the numerous warlords is part and party of a culture created by endless war from hungry super powers. They are not nice and the future won't be nice. Some introspection is needed by the architects of their plight.

It is absolute madness to assume that western powers/Trump/Biden did NOT see this coming...

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yup.
Sadly, it seems that this history has to be stated on this site every decade or so. I clearly remember a previous 'era' where such exchanges were had.

Our desertion of the Afghan people (repeatedly) is disgraceful. It is fine to say that Afghan Forces should be able to defend themselves, but that is frankly not realistic and never was. It takes decades to fortify an army. The Taliban has played this very smartly, in the sense of not attacking UN/US forces for several months up too May. False security. The biggest problem was the stating of a May deadline by the previous admin, albeit I should be clear and say that I think Biden could've easily reversed this and stated there would be no withdrawal. Given how that country has been used over and over, there is clearly a debt we need to recognize in helping them beyond when WE think is right.

Helping them how?

 

[thfcsteff]

Helping them how?

Two answers.

First, what should've been done. NO statement of a withdrawal timeline publicly. A greater liaison between the contractors and specialists who have been helping build the Afghan army and security forces over the years to ensure they're actually ready. A greater understanding of modern Middle Eastern history (which they have been complicit in)...a public timeline (which I am aware was first broached by Obama) was a total mistake.

At THIS point, it would be to reestablish a presence as quickly as possible, and failing that (if it is, indeed, too late as it seems) make sure we both evacuate and make accommodations for ALL who are displaced an uprooted by this. Internationally. It is the least price we should collectively pay for fudging yet another generation of Afghan people...

 

[Finney Is Back]

Two answers.

First, what should've been done. NO statement of a withdrawal timeline publicly. A greater liaison between the contractors and specialists who have been helping build the Afghan army and security forces over the years to ensure they're actually ready. A greater understanding of modern Middle Eastern history (which they have been complicit in)...a public timeline (which I am aware was first broached by Obama) was a total mistake.

At THIS point, it would be to reestablish a presence as quickly as possible, and failing that (if it is, indeed, too late as it seems) make sure we both evacuate and make accommodations for ALL who are displaced an uprooted by this. Internationally. It is the least price we should collectively pay for fudging yet another generation of Afghan people...

So even more meddling?

 

[DaveT316]

The Power of Nightmares, Adam Curtis’ magnificent documentary series on the myriad ways the west is responsible for the devastating situation outlined in the great posts above, is highly recommended if anyone wants to educate themselves further.

Almost 20 years old and still, unfortunately, entirely relevant today. It’s always available on BBC iPlayer.

I was going to ask for source material to educate me on this as i feel woefully ill-informed. Any more that would help?