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Tottenham vs The Scum

DTA said:
I think you have the balkan war mixed up with the Bosnian genocide.

The Orthodox Christian Serbs absolutely used religion and racism as an excuse for their atrocities I could probably pull up quotes for you. But then again every single time you have schooled on this subject you simply double down, not even acknowledging you were wrong just moving on to the next display of your prejudice.

The Banu Qurayza? You are serious about that? I thought you wanted to talk about modern atrocities...

OK dude:

I mean the list is so long I don't even know where to start:

The crusades... too obvious.

400 years of industrial slavery justified and facilitated by priests and the church...

Then Spanish inquisition, where in the name of christ Jews were slaughtered and excited from Spain? And incidently saved by a Muslim Sultan...

Pretty much every Pogrom up until the nazis

All could be good examples... but I think I'm going to go for the conquistadors and their genocide in the name of spreading the word of christ
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Again none of those terrible crimes were a direct instruction of the leader of the faith.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Islam not being a race is probably fact. But every time we are discriminated against it is the first thing out of people's mouths. But we do experience racism and discrimination. And this is not something people seem comfortable empathising with. And that is driven by a dislike of Muslims rather than just Islam in my lived experience.
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Managed to stay out of one religious conversation on here for a while at least.

Just wanted to start by commenting on this particular point knowing that we've had conversations about religions on here before and I'm quite sure I've made the point about Islam not being a race. Just wanted to say I hope I didn't contribute to the lived experiences you mentioned in those conversations past. If I did, I apologise.

I find myself ever more cautious about using the same language as people I disagree with, even if I agree with the statement. I haven't always been as mindful of that and that really was a failure on my part.

Still dislike all religions mind, still like a lot of religious people.
 
Gazza said:
I think you have the balkan war a little misconstrued to make your point ... it was a land grab exercise for ethnic people of various regions. Not in the name of religion.

But Jesus didn't kill a single person ... look at the life of mohammad you didn't address the butchering of the tribe I had mentioned. Did Mohammad rid of slavery? Nope. All he did was try to justify it by making the obedient slaves lives better. He by the dictionary term was a war Lord. He didn't rid marrying or children.

Anyway we are not going to get anywhere... there are other peaceful religions that get along merrily worldwide. I find Islam incompatible from my own reading. And again I'm not talking about Muslims, bloody hell how many times can I say that. Its the theology of Islam that I disagree with.

You get that?
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I think making it a conversation about the two men is an oversimplification. The bible is about a lot more than Jesus.

Just for specificity, which religions are the "peaceful" one's that "get along merrily worldwide"? Are you only talking getting along now or also in the past?
 
braineclipse said:
I think making it a conversation about the two men is an oversimplification. The bible is about a lot more than Jesus.

Just for specificity, which religions are the "peaceful" one's that "get along merrily worldwide"? Are you only talking getting along now or also in the past?
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It's not even about Jesus. Or any other faith for that matter.

It's about @Gazza and others learning about Islam from Islamophobic sources. Homogenising "the muslims" based on the absolute worst examples of people of that faith. Making patently false statements, and when being educated on them he/they patently refuses to acknowledge that, but instead doubles down, and moves on to the next false statement that he has again undoubtedly learnt from Islamabhobic sources.

@Gazza has done some very basic reading in undoubtedly dubious sources and somehow thinks he can challenge someone like @LutonSpurs about the subject. What the fück is that about?

@Gazza with the best will in the world: It's OK not knowing, it's OK being wrong, just don't be "wrong and strong" bruv. Be open to learning and questioning how your views were formed.

Learn about Islam from someone like @LutonSpurs not someone like Tony Robinson
 
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braineclipse said:
Managed to stay out of one religious conversation on here for a while at least.

Just wanted to start by commenting on this particular point knowing that we've had conversations about religions on here before and I'm quite sure I've made the point about Islam not being a race. Just wanted to say I hope I didn't contribute to the lived experiences you mentioned in those conversations past. If I did, I apologise.

I find myself ever more cautious about using the same language as people I disagree with, even if I agree with the statement. I haven't always been as mindful of that and that really was a failure on my part.

Still dislike all religions mind, still like a lot of religious people.
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I welcome you and admire your input to every thread you have participated in with me my friend. Be at peace please. And boy does this mean alot to me. This is allyship.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Islam not being a race is probably fact. But every time we are discriminated against it is the first thing out of people's mouths. But we do experience racism and discrimination. And this is not something people seem comfortable empathising with. And that is driven by a dislike of Muslims rather than just Islam in my lived experience.
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I empathise with that. I wouldn’t pretend to know what it is like to be in your shoes, all forms of discrimination is wrong. You are probably right about there being a dislike towards Muslims based on prejudice but I think it’s also lack of education. For example the same people that don’t like Muslims probably don’t realise that the largest Muslim majority country is Indonesia which culturally is far different than that of Europe or the Arab world where a large majority of Muslims live. Not comparing our experiences at all, but my partner is Chinese. I noticed quite early on I was getting some funny looks from both white people and from Asian (Chinese) people. I said to my partner is it me or are we are getting some funny looks and she said yeah they probably don’t approve. I am not sure if that qualifies as racism, but it’s discrimination either way. All of her family and mine seem perfectly happy that we are in a mixed relationship which is all that matters and people definitely inter-marry more than they used to but we’re not quite there yet with everyone being ok with it. Again not saying that compares with some of the experiences I’ve read on here but I can empathise to a degree as much as I can never put myself in your shoes.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I empathise with that. I wouldn’t pretend to know what it is like to be in your shoes, all forms of discrimination is wrong. You are probably right about there being a dislike towards Muslims based on prejudice but I think it’s also lack of education. For example the same people that don’t like Muslims probably don’t realise that the largest Muslim majority country is Indonesia which culturally is far different than that of Europe or the Arab world where a large majority of Muslims live. Not comparing our experiences at all, but my partner is Chinese. I noticed quite early on I was getting some funny looks from both white people and from Asian (Chinese) people. I said to my partner is it me or are we are getting some funny looks and she said yeah they probably don’t approve. I am not sure if that qualifies as racism, but it’s discrimination either way. All of her family and mine seem perfectly happy that we are in a mixed relationship which is all that matters and people definitely inter-marry more than they used to but we’re not quite there yet with everyone being ok with it. Again not saying that compares with some of the experiences I’ve read on here but I can empathise to a degree as much as I can never put myself in your shoes.
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2 months ago I took the stage with 2 of my Chinese colleagues at work to talk about Asian Hate and their lived experiences since the pandemic. Its horrific. I have never attacked the clichés about their culture and what the world thinks they eat coz I'm not a racist. I care. One of the colleagues is gay and Chinese and happens to be one of my best mates in and out of work. I asked him how I could be an ally rather than lecture him on how his culture is bad. And I listened and learned. I'm no saint but I try hard.
 
Gazza said:
I think you have the balkan war a little misconstrued to make your point ... it was a land grab exercise for ethnic people of various regions. Not in the name of religion.

But Jesus didn't kill a single person ... look at the life of mohammad you didn't address the butchering of the tribe I had mentioned. Did Mohammad rid of slavery? Nope. All he did was try to justify it by making the obedient slaves lives better. He by the dictionary term was a war Lord. He didn't rid marrying or children.

Anyway we are not going to get anywhere... there are other peaceful religions that get along merrily worldwide. I find Islam incompatible from my own reading. And again I'm not talking about Muslims, bloody hell how many times can I say that. Its the theology of Islam that I disagree with.

You get that?
Click to expand...

I think you need to accept you do have a anti-Islam bias. You’ve more or less admitted it yourself. And yes I understand that it is based on some real world issues. However, you are still biased and unable to see a balanced view.

Jesus followed Moses his GHod, who wished plague and murder on competing tribes. But you’ll see it and understand it from your own pre-judgment. When a war is perpetrated by Muslims - it’s religious. When it’s perpetrated by Christians their religion is incidental.

If you can’t appreciate that all religions are conflicted and just want to focus on Islam that shows up your prejudice. It’s not racism. Many seem to confuse the two. Everyone has prejudices (pre-judgments and stereotypes) and what makes them so pervasive is they have a kernel of truth to them.

If you were to have a balanced view you’d also understand that Islam has many attractive positive side to do with brotherly support, care of others and community, but your prejudice (pre-judgment) won’t let you go there. It is not surprising with the common representations of Islam in the news - taliban, bombers etc That is not Islam for 99% of the people that follow it.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
SpurMeUp said:
I think you need to accept you do have a anti-Islam bias. You’ve more or less admitted it yourself. And yes I understand that it is based on some real world issues. However, you are still biased and unable to see a balanced view.

Jesus followed Moses his GHod, who wished plague and murder on competing tribes. But you’ll see it and understand it from your own pre-judgment. When a war is perpetrated by Muslims - it’s religious. When it’s perpetrated by Christians their religion is incidental.

If you can’t appreciate that all religions are conflicted and just want to focus on Islam that shows up your prejudice. It’s not racism. Many seem to confuse the two. Everyone has prejudices (pre-judgments and stereotypes) and what makes them so pervasive is they have a kernel of truth to them.

If you were to have a balanced view you’d also understand that Islam has many attractive positive side to do with brotherly support, care of others and community, but your prejudice (pre-judgment) won’t let you go there. It is not surprising with the common representations of Islam in the news - taliban, bombers etc That is not Islam for 99% of the people that follow it.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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I completely admit I don't agree with Islam... but to put it in perspective it's more about what's written in the quran about homosexuals and how to deal with them, how to deal with women adulterers, the testimony of women compared to a man, how women cannot marry out of religion but men can, reference to non believer's as almost bottom feeders and second rate people, the fact that slavery is justified .... all pointing to human rights.

And again I don't agree with Islam but say for example sympathise with the people of pallestine for the current land grab.

Doesn't help with the leader, yes mohamad advocated this and led by example apparently.

Going on to Christianity there is lots I the bible I find distasteful but I look at the life of Jesus compared to mo. Its basic.

I look at Buddha, the lives of other religious leaders.
 
DTA said:
It's not even about Jesus. Or any other faith for that matter.

It's about @Gazza and others learning about Islam from Islamophobic sources. Homogenising "the muslims" based on the absolute worst examples of people of that faith. Making patently false statements, and when being educated on them he/they patently refuses to acknowledge that, but instead doubles down, and moves on to the next false statement that he has again undoubtedly learnt from Islamabhobic sources.

@Gazza has done some very basic reading in undoubtedly dubious sources and somehow thinks he can challenge someone like @LutonSpurs about the subject. What the fück is that about?

@Gazza with the best will in the world: It's OK not knowing, it's OK being wrong, just don't be "wrong and strong" bruv. Be open to learning and questioning how your views were formed.

Learn about Islam from someone like @LutonSpurs not someone like Tony Robinson
Click to expand...

Basic and not true in the slightest. How about learning from imams and what they have to advocate, what qualifications does Luton have vs Islamic scholars. You can openly read and see what they have to say online.

I look at the life of mohammad and 100% disagree. Simple.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I think you need to accept you do have a anti-Islam bias. You’ve more or less admitted it yourself. And yes I understand that it is based on some real world issues. However, you are still biased and unable to see a balanced view.

Jesus followed Moses his GHod, who wished plague and murder on competing tribes. But you’ll see it and understand it from your own pre-judgment. When a war is perpetrated by Muslims - it’s religious. When it’s perpetrated by Christians their religion is incidental.

If you can’t appreciate that all religions are conflicted and just want to focus on Islam that shows up your prejudice. It’s not racism. Many seem to confuse the two. Everyone has prejudices (pre-judgments and stereotypes) and what makes them so pervasive is they have a kernel of truth to them.

If you were to have a balanced view you’d also understand that Islam has many attractive positive side to do with brotherly support, care of others and community, but your prejudice (pre-judgment) won’t let you go there. It is not surprising with the common representations of Islam in the news - taliban, bombers etc That is not Islam for 99% of the people that follow it.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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Jesus followed Moses? What kind of Bible have you been reading?
 
This thread has morphed into a microcosm of the problem we face as a species. We need to spend our energy focusing on real stuff rather than which superhero is best.
 
As the great Dave Allen used to say " May your GHod go with you". I am not religious but i believe religion ( in its many forms) has led to the death of a shed load of folks ( more then anything else has done). I find it hard to believe any one can deny that no matter what faith they believe in.
 
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