Tottenham vs Orient OMT

[Finney Is Back]

When? Bale used to tear apart the best teams in the world for fun, now?

You really don't read anything I write, you just read two words and decide on an opposite view. my point
- Dele isn't in first team
- He gets a chance against lesser opposition, he fudges it up (unlike Lucas and Lamela who often play well at lower levels and data backs that up)
- If he fudges up, how do you justify giving him a run at top level? because he used to? that is the same fudging reason Dier & Winks are here, because they used to be half decent.

Dele, Winks, Dier, Sanchez, Lamela, Sissoko, Doherty, Davies should all be sold in the order of who gets an offer first.

When?…. Immediately before he (rightly IMO) dared criticise our previous manager’s terrible, boring, defensive, long ball tactics and the manager then decided to treat him differently from the rest. If we’re judging our players on our time under the ultra defensive Mourinho then we need to sell all but Kane, Son, Lloris and Hojbjeg.

 

[markysimmo]

I would try and sell both Alli and Lamela.

and Winks and Sissoko and Sanchez and Dier and Aurier hahaha

 

[thfcsteff]

This is a good summary of the Dele situation imo.

He has proven himself to be pretty reliant on having other top quality players around him. I did some analysis previously on how his dips in form always aligned to Kane/Eriksen being out of the team, and Son also.

The BIG + with Dele is that his ceiling is so high when we do have all the ingredients in the team and can play in a way that suits him. Last season even with limited game time he made so many runs into the box that Eriksen previously would have found but the current midfield just recycled and passed sideways - and you could see Dele frustrated. And touching on the above point about relying on other players, he didn’t get a whole lot of ‘Kane time’ last season - most of his minutes before the end of the season were in the lesser games - similar to the Orient game.

If people think Dele should be able to go out and rip it up on his own against Orient then they really havent acknowledged the type of player that he is over the last 5 years. Someone like Son or Moura could totally do that. Dele on the other hand needs class around him - but the rewards are high when that is the case.

With Bale going I really hoped we could solve the Eriksen puzzle and maybe find a player that could knit things together - it screams Lamela but he can’t be relied upon.

Going back a few seasons we managed to get in Kane, Son, Dele, Eriksen and because they were all good players they would swap around and we would never look out of shape. Since Eriksen went downhill/left we haven’t been able to fix that.

To add to these fine points, I wonder if Southgate's use of him in the 2018 World Cup (deeper role) and the subsequent criticism he received from people who did not understand the role he was playing versus his usual role were additional factors in his head spinning a bit?

 

[Raziel]

My fairness, this is a general reply to those who feel Dele should be sold versus those who don't (I am in the latter camp).
My points.

-Lamela wasn't a first team regular either, and that was despite being one of the players Mourinho liked. Dele was always onto a bomb with Mourinho, thus unfair to judge his status based on that time-frame.
- Lesser opposition chances and he fudges it up? You sure he does any more than anyone does in the eyes of expectant supporters? He repeatedly played well in the EL until Xmas when it was clear he wanted to go to Paris to be with Poch, Mourinho wanted him out but DL refused. FWIW one of the goals he scored (bicycle against Wolfsberger) is a contender for UEFA Goal of the Season.
-Depends on your definition of 'fudges up' I suppose. I remember a player who for several seasons showed skill, intelligence and workrate which earmarked him as a brilliant talent. Injuries and that old demon drop in form for a young superstar hit him, and he certainly needed to pick himself up and get his brick together too. It appears he has endeavored to take that path. If he finds similar form to before, he is an 80 mill player minimum. Natural talent and pitch intelligence like his is rare. You do all you can to reignite it, and with the player himself now back on board, I think selling him would be an enormous mistake.

Hey Steff, my point is, and @Benny_Lad kind goes there as well

- Dele has/had a high ceiling, but he hasn't hit that point in a long time and is now in the "maybe if we give him game time and a formation that suits him, he will get back there"
- When he is likely to get game time (lesser games), he struggles to make an impact, my point (which has now digressed to a Dele vs. Lamela argument) is Lucas & Lamela in the same situation will have more of an impact in those "lesser" games (and data backs that up, Lamela actually has more cup goals for Spurs than Dele)
- If he can't impact those games, then how would a manger be expected to play him in a higher level game? hence the circle continues -> poor performance -> not enough game time

I think this is the usual you and me conversation
- The dreamer would say there is a WC talent there, we should do everything we can to get him back there even at a short term cost to team
- The pragmatist would say, just another young English talent that didn't push on, isn't justifying his inclusion and we should cash in before it's a total loss.

My other issue with Dele is who does he replace in the side? nobody wants to answer this, it's either 5 or 6 spots -> PEH, Skipp, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Lucas, Bergwijn, Son, Kane. I'd say 4 of those spots are locked (PEH, Son, Kane +either Lo Celso/Ndombele), Skipp likely in if we want more solidity, other of Lo Celso/Ndombele if we want more attacking/creative, Bergwijn for width, Lucas for width and/or directness. In the first 11 I just don't see game time in any real way, add in his poorer lesser game impact, it's hard for him.

And while it's seemingly the fashion now to brick on Lamela (flimflam about he can't pass or beat a man), if we had one game to play tomorrow that was critical and the choice was between the two of them, I know who I would pick and I know who would turn up and give a brick.

 

[Raziel]

When?…. Immediately before he (rightly IMO) dared criticise our previous manager’s terrible, boring, defensive, long ball tactics and the manager then decided to treat him differently from the rest. If we’re judging our players on our time under the ultra defensive Mourinho then we need to sell all but Kane, Son, Lloris and Hojbjeg.

Bale is a flat track bully now, if you believe his inability to turn up against big sides was on Jose you clearly didn't watch the Euros.

 

[SpurMeUp]

With Bale going I really hoped we could solve the Eriksen puzzle and maybe find a player that could knit things together - it screams Lamela but he can’t be relied upon.

Going back a few seasons we managed to get in Kane, Son, Dele, Eriksen and because they were all good players they would swap around and we would never look out of shape. Since Eriksen went downhill/left we haven’t been able to fix that.

And in kind, Eriksen missed Dembele who opened up a bit space for him to play. Without Dembele Eriksen was much easier to mark. Ndombele promised or promises to be the player who can knit things together. But 1. fitness, 2. his mentality and desire and 3. confidence. About time he 'arrived' not in a cameo but consistently through a season. Can he do it? Why not? He needs a manager to take away the pressure imo and just get him focused and playing week in and out. Do the simple things well and his skill will do the rest. Ndombele can draw players in and create more space for Alli et al to thrive. We need a disruptor in the middle of the park.

 

[Raziel]

And in kind, Eriksen missed Dembele who opened up a bit space for him to play. Without Dembele Eriksen was much easier to mark. Ndombele promised or promises to be the player who can knit things together. But 1. fitness, 2. his mentality and desire and 3. confidence. About time he 'arrived' not in a cameo but consistently through a season. Can he do it? Why not? He needs a manager to take away the pressure imo and just get him focused and playing week in and out. Do the simple things well and his skill will do the rest. Ndombele can draw players in and create more space for Alli et al to thrive. We need a disruptor in the middle of the park.

Ndombele is a unique player, but like Eriksen he needs to be burdened a little less with defensive duties to truly be effective.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Hey Steff, my point is, and @Benny_Lad kind goes there as well

- Dele has/had a high ceiling, but he hasn't hit that point in a long time and is now in the "maybe if we give him game time and a formation that suits him, he will get back there"
- When he is likely to get game time (lesser games), he struggles to make an impact, my point (which has now digressed to a Dele vs. Lamela argument) is Lucas & Lamela in the same situation will have more of an impact in those "lesser" games (and data backs that up, Lamela actually has more cup goals for Spurs than Dele)
- If he can't impact those games, then how would a manger be expected to play him in a higher level game? hence the circle continues -> poor performance -> not enough game time

I think this is the usual you and me conversation
- The dreamer would say there is a WC talent there, we should do everything we can to get him back there even at a short term cost to team
- The pragmatist would say, just another young English talent that didn't push on, isn't justifying his inclusion and we should cash in before it's a total loss.

My other issue with Dele is who does he replace in the side? nobody wants to answer this, it's either 5 or 6 spots -> PEH, Skipp, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Lucas, Bergwijn, Son, Kane. I'd say 4 of those spots are locked (PEH, Son, Kane +either Lo Celso/Ndombele), Skipp likely in if we want more solidity, other of Lo Celso/Ndombele if we want more attacking/creative, Bergwijn for width, Lucas for width and/or directness. In the first 11 I just don't see game time in any real way, add in his poorer lesser game impact, it's hard for him.

And while it's seemingly the fashion now to brick on Lamela (flimflam about he can't pass or beat a man), if we had one game to play tomorrow that was critical and the choice was between the two of them, I know who I would pick and I know who would turn up and give a brick.

Where does he fit is the biggest issue against him
He isn’t a CM anymore as he have used him consistently since he joined as an AM
And we play less AM players now than we did before it seems

 

[MKSpur]

I think it was difficult for Dele to shine in the pragmatic fearful counter attacking team under Jose. Before then I think his issues with England originated with him being played out of position and guessing Southgate wasn’t a huge fan of his personality / training. Under Poch he also started to play deeper for us, he also got an injury for England and I think the position change, lay-off and the changes with the team quality overall stopped him being the natural confident player he was. Perhaps some misplaced over confidence due to how easy it had come (not in terms of how hard he worked but literally every step from debut at MK Dons to being young player of the year and an international starter was an upward one) and some off the field distractions that come with being a time rich multi millionaire have made the return to form more difficult.
I do see the challenges with setting up to accommodate him but he never had that run of games to play his way back in. I just think he deserves a shot with Nuno because the gifts he has are so unique to the game that there are very few players who can make that yard of space or deliver the goals from that position. And we need a squad, the idea he has to fight for his place and potentially rotate is a good thing for him and us. As long as he is following instruction and working hard he’s still a player I think can come good for us, where set up becomes about using the ball in tight situations rather than just running into the space we’ve created by sitting deep and letting the opponent have the ball. If we are comparing him to Moura Bergwijn and Lamela the difference is their best qualities are without the ball. If we have a system that enables the defenders centre mid and wing backs retrieving the ball then we need someone who can pass and score more. Last chance saloon but his age, track record and the change in manager make me think we have more to gain than lose by giving him an opportunity.

 

[parklane1]

To be honest i do not care if he stays or goes, i understand that when he first arrived here he lit the place up and looked like he had the world at his feet. However he has been a shadow of that player for a couple of years now and he has shown no real desire to change that around.

I keep hearing that ist all Jose fault ( haters got to hate) but he was poor under Poch for a while and also lost his place in the England squad. Folks can keep making excuses for him and blame others for his decline but he has to take s ome responabilty for his poor performances which as i said earlier has been there for a while.

 

[FatBloke]

This is a good summary of the Dele situation imo.

He has proven himself to be pretty reliant on having other top quality players around him. I did some analysis previously on how his dips in form always aligned to Kane/Eriksen being out of the team, and Son also.

The BIG + with Dele is that his ceiling is so high when we do have all the ingredients in the team and can play in a way that suits him. Last season even with limited game time he made so many runs into the box that Eriksen previously would have found but the current midfield just recycled and passed sideways - and you could see Dele frustrated. And touching on the above point about relying on other players, he didn’t get a whole lot of ‘Kane time’ last season - most of his minutes before the end of the season were in the lesser games - similar to the Orient game.

If people think Dele should be able to go out and rip it up on his own against Orient then they really havent acknowledged the type of player that he is over the last 5 years. Someone like Son or Moura could totally do that. Dele on the other hand needs class around him - but the rewards are high when that is the case.

With Bale going I really hoped we could solve the Eriksen puzzle and maybe find a player that could knit things together - it screams Lamela but he can’t be relied upon.

Going back a few seasons we managed to get in Kane, Son, Dele, Eriksen and because they were all good players they would swap around and we would never look out of shape. Since Eriksen went downhill/left we haven’t been able to fix that.

Weirdly, what Dele needs is more structure around him. He's not the romantic Hoddle type player who could go out there and win games on his own...but then, how would even Hoddle fare against the fitter more organised defences of today? Instead, Dele is (or was) the epitome of a modern footballer -- tactically and positionally aware, with good work rate, who could slot into a system and make it better. His magic came from his football intelligence -- his use of the space (and passes) made by the system. IMHO.

The thing that upset me most about last season was our absolute lack of shape in the attacking third. It was like our attacking players had barely met each other at times, never mind putting in hours on the training pitch. Compare that to Everton in the late-season 2-2 match, who could play quick passes and blind balls because they were a team. Whereas our tactic seemed to be "give it to Kane and see if he can make some magic happen". If they had a finisher half as good as Kane, it wouldn't even have been close.

I could be completely wrong to blame the manager. Perhaps our players really are a feckless bunch who've shown how brick and/or lazy they are under three managers now. Perhaps Mourinho is still a genius and Roma are about to take the world by storm. Perhaps that's a pig flying past my window.

I'm happy to give players like Dele, Lo Celso and Ndombele a pass for last season. If we don't have a recognisable system of play by October, however, I'm going to well and truly throw my toys out of the pram.

 

[Raziel]

Weirdly, what Dele needs is more structure around him. He's not the romantic Hoddle type player who could go out there and win games on his own...but then, how would even Hoddle fair against the fitter more organised defences of today? Instead, Dele is (or was) the epitome of a modern footballer -- tactically and positionally aware, with good work rate, who could slot into a system and make it better. His magic came from his football intelligence -- his use of the space (and passes) made by the system. IMHO.

The thing that upset me most about last season was our absolute lack of shape in the attacking third. It was like our attacking players had barely met each other at times, never mind putting in hours on the training pitch. Compare that to Everton in the late-season 2-2 match, who could play quick passes and blind balls because they were a team. Whereas our tactic seemed to be "give it to Kane and see if he can make some magic happen". If they had a finisher half as good as Kane, it wouldn't even have been close.

I could be completely wrong to blame the manager. Perhaps our players really are a feckless bunch who've shown how brick and/or lazy they are under three managers now. Perhaps Mourinho is still a genius and Roma are about to take the world by storm. Perhaps that's a pig flying past my window.

I'm happy to give players like Dele, Lo Celso and Ndombele a pass for last season. If we don't have a recognisable system of play by October, however, I'm going to well and truly throw my toys out of the pram.

So two points for me in there

- Dele has always been (for me) an upmarket version of Jenas, first and foremost an athlete, with a massive gap between when properly motivated and base level (remember or go look up JJ games against the Scum), it's up to him now, the list of what could have been english players is already long.
- The lack of a system is there, so many crap sides in the PL look well coached now, where we have looked like a team with talent that play poorly but could hurt you in that moment.

 

[FatBloke]

So two points for me in there

- Dele has always been (for me) an upmarket version of Jenas, first and foremost an athlete, with a massive gap between when properly motivated and base level (remember or go look up JJ games against the Scum), it's up to him now, the list of what could have been english players is already long.
- The lack of a system is there, so many crap sides in the PL look well coached now, where we have looked like a team with talent that play poorly but could hurt you in that moment.

I disagree with the Jenas analogy. Dele is (or was) capable of things that Jenas could only dream of. "JJ + magic", perhaps. But yes, he could easily end up on a very long list of might-have-beens. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that Dele is currently on that list and it's up to him and his manager to get him off it.

Absolutely agree with that last bit. Imagine what that talent would look like in a system that complements our players.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think Dele essentially overachieved. And now there is an expectation he can play like that every week. Everyone needs to lower their expectations somewhat and let him build up a run of form. Technically he's a fantastic player, and as he matures he will get a little stronger and bigger too. He's never going to have the pace of some other players, but that really doesn't matter. Sherringham showed that the first meter is in the mind - having the vision and anticipation, and as @FatBloke says his reading of the game and sharpness playing with/off others is fantastic. I hope he can relax without all the pressure to deliver worldie performances, and just build himself up again. Whether that is with us or someone else.

 

[Jurgen the German]

When?…. Immediately before he (rightly IMO) dared criticise our previous manager’s terrible, boring, defensive, long ball tactics and the manager then decided to treat him differently from the rest. If we’re judging our players on our time under the ultra defensive Mourinho then we need to sell all but Kane, Son, Lloris and Hojbjeg.

But he started to stagnate under Poch. Started to score less goals. And he lost his place in the England team after being a shoe in during the last World Cup. When was the last time he was even picked in the squad?

 

[thfcsteff]

Hey Steff, my point is, and @Benny_Lad kind goes there as well

- Dele has/had a high ceiling, but he hasn't hit that point in a long time and is now in the "maybe if we give him game time and a formation that suits him, he will get back there"
- When he is likely to get game time (lesser games), he struggles to make an impact, my point (which has now digressed to a Dele vs. Lamela argument) is Lucas & Lamela in the same situation will have more of an impact in those "lesser" games (and data backs that up, Lamela actually has more cup goals for Spurs than Dele)
- If he can't impact those games, then how would a manger be expected to play him in a higher level game? hence the circle continues -> poor performance -> not enough game time

I think this is the usual you and me conversation
- The dreamer would say there is a WC talent there, we should do everything we can to get him back there even at a short term cost to team
- The pragmatist would say, just another young English talent that didn't push on, isn't justifying his inclusion and we should cash in before it's a total loss.

My other issue with Dele is who does he replace in the side? nobody wants to answer this, it's either 5 or 6 spots -> PEH, Skipp, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Lucas, Bergwijn, Son, Kane. I'd say 4 of those spots are locked (PEH, Son, Kane +either Lo Celso/Ndombele), Skipp likely in if we want more solidity, other of Lo Celso/Ndombele if we want more attacking/creative, Bergwijn for width, Lucas for width and/or directness. In the first 11 I just don't see game time in any real way, add in his poorer lesser game impact, it's hard for him.

And while it's seemingly the fashion now to brick on Lamela (flimflam about he can't pass or beat a man), if we had one game to play tomorrow that was critical and the choice was between the two of them, I know who I would pick and I know who would turn up and give a brick.

I think this is not so much about pragmatism as it is trust and belief in talent. Has he done enough to earn the trust for another shot? Does his potential justify it alone?

Seems like Lamela will be off anyway...

 

[thfcsteff]

To be honest i do not care if he stays or goes, i understand that when he first arrived here he lit the place up and looked like he had the world at his feet. However he has been a shadow of that player for a couple of years now and he has shown no real desire to change that around.

I keep hearing that ist all Jose fault ( haters got to hate) but he was poor under Poch for a while and also lost his place in the England squad. Folks can keep making excuses for him and blame others for his decline but he has to take those like me responabilty for his poor performances which as i said earlier has been there for a while.

Despite being 'poor under Poch for a while' he still produced enough to step up in several key key moments for us, including the CLSF at Ajax (and remember he was injured for a while that season).
I think this 'poor for a while' thing is a bit of a myth TBH.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Bale is a flat track bully now, if you believe his inability to turn up against big sides was on Jose you clearly didn't watch the Euros.

Sorry, I was talking about Dele not Bale. I thought your 'when' question referred to Dele and the following sentence about Bale was a separate point.

 

[parklane1]

Despite being 'poor under Poch for a while' he still produced enough to step up in several key key moments for us, including the CLSF at Ajax (and remember he was injured for a while that season).
I think this 'poor for a while' thing is a bit of a myth TBH.

Sorry Steff but i think you " protest to much" on behalf of Alli. But as they say Stop! Hammer time.

 

[thfcsteff]

Sorry Steff but i think you " protest to much" on behalf of Alli. But as they say Stop! Hammer time.

Hahahaha, errr, OK mate!