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***Tottenham Hotspur v Scumball Wanderers***

billyiddo said:
I saw the defensive stats you posted and they can be used to argue either side of the debate - I'd expect a team told to be passive and to sit off the opposition to have low defensive numbers whilst they also support the idea that they never put a shift in.
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But I don’t believe we were told to be passive with that line up
It’s why I think he made the changes he did
You said on another thread he was barking at them last season to press and they didn’t
@AdamB mentioned it today that he would expect to see more form Jose on the sidelines but I’m not sure if that would work either based on last season
Maybe it’s fatigue kicking in periodically
The team didn’t run, didn’t work and didn’t cover space leaving them to attack abs press us
We lost that game, rather than them winning it for me
The last 10 minutes when they sat off us are a bit misleading too as it was a case of brick or bust for us and panic stations for them IMO
 
Bedfordspurs said:
But I don’t believe we were told to be passive with that line up
It’s why I think he made the changes he did
You said on another thread he was barking at them last season to press and they didn’t
@AdamB mentioned it today that he would expect to see more form Jose on the sidelines but I’m not sure if that would work either based on last season
Maybe it’s fatigue kicking in periodically
The team didn’t run, didn’t work and didn’t cover space leaving them to attack abs press us
We lost that game, rather than them winning it for me
The last 10 minutes when they sat off us are a bit misleading too as it was a case of brick or bust for us and panic stations for them IMO
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I know you don't agree, but there's no evidence either way, which was my point - line up and formation doesn't dictate the tactics, we've lined up 4231 plenty of times in games that we have conceded the initiative. The actions of the players in certain situations give me a better picture of what the game plan was than the line up.
 
billyiddo said:
I know you don't agree, but there's no evidence either way, which was my point - line up and formation doesn't dictate the tactics, we've lined up 4231 plenty of times in games that we have conceded the initiative. The actions of the players in certain situations give me a better picture of what the game plan was than the line up.
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But the actions of the players can also be reflective of their motivations or lack of too.
 
billyiddo said:
Hence why i said there's no evidence either way
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And also this is perhaps why everyone is deferring to their natural bias - for me this is another in a long line of poor results and performance against any top half team we come up against, it follows that trend - that's what i meant in an earlier post wrt to having credit in the bank, we haven't seen us take the game to any top team (asides from WH who played a low block themlselves) so there's nothing to fall back on see what the plan actually is.
 
I don’t think Jose sent them out to be passive yesterday, I just don’t think we are a very well coached team full stop. We’re one of few teams in the PL who don’t have an identity.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I don’t think Jose sent them out to be passive yesterday, I just don’t think we are a very well coached team full stop. We’re one of few teams in the PL who don’t have an identity.
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It can be argued either way - but ultimately it's a common theme against any half decent team that wants to play, whether that's by design or through not being coached well the buck stops at the same place.
 
billyiddo said:
Hence why i said there's no evidence either way
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I think the evidence is when we set up to play low block we normally play more defensive players and when we’re not planning on playing that way we play more attacking players
We played the same line up and formation that won the last three league games. The players though did work hard in those games and were pedestrian yesterday. That effort makes a lot of difference
What I can’t say for certain is what Jose asked them to play like. But when we used to like up low block we would have Sissoko in midfield and Bergwein wide. Both were available yesterday and didn’t start
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I think the evidence is when we set up to play low block we normally play more defensive players and when we’re not planning on playing that way we play more attacking players
We played the same line up and formation that won the last three league games. The players though did work hard in those games and were pedestrian yesterday. That effort makes a lot of difference
What I can’t say for certain is what Jose asked them to play like. But when we used to like up low block we would have Sissoko in midfield and Bergwein wide. Both were available yesterday and didn’t start
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on paper our formation in other games where we have sat off opponents has been 4231 so that doesn't really tell us anything and correct me if Im wrong but haven't you been arguing Mourinho has had his hand forced previously wrt to not playing the more attacking plyers/set up (Bergwijn instead of Dele/Bale and Sissoko instead of Ndombele deeper) - are we now arguing it was in fact a tactical choice to play a more defensive game back then?


i suspect we'll just be going round in circles here tbh mate but when you look at how we have played all season in big games/games v top half teams they all have a similar feel to them and this game followed that - so where's the sign that he knows how to get us playing v equal or better sides?
 
I think we tend to over-analyse things. Simply put we didn't turn up.
Doherty still struggling with form, Hojbjerg was poor as was Ndombele, Kane carrying a knock, Bale a no-show and Son plain knackered. That leaves 5 positions in the team that did ok on the day but is not going to win you a match against anyone let alone in a derby. Jose's tactics may have been a factor also but with only half a team nothing was going to work.
 
billyiddo said:
on paper our formation in other games where we have sat off opponents has been 4231 so that doesn't really tell us anything and correct me if Im wrong but haven't you been arguing Mourinho has had his hand forced previously wrt to not playing the more attacking plyers/set up (Bergwijn instead of Dele/Bale and Sissoko instead of Ndombele deeper) - are we now arguing it was in fact a tactical choice to play a more defensive game back then?
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What I’ve said was that we are now playing out best attacking football with our best players available
I stand by that
And previously he couldn’t play bale and dele as they weren’t fit. So his options weren’t as vast as they are now
What 4-2-3-1 games are you referring too?
 
Bedfordspurs said:
What I’ve said was that we are now playing out best attacking football with our best players available
I stand by that
And previously he couldn’t play bale and dele as they weren’t fit. So his options weren’t as vast as they are now
What 4-2-3-1 games are you referring too?
Click to expand...

pretty sure you argued that our approach hasn't changed over this recent run of good form, we were just able to play our better attacking players, which contradicts your post above saying that if we wanted to play defensively we would have played Bergwijn and Sissoko

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...er-League-2020-2021-Tottenham-Manchester-City
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485240/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Chelsea-Tottenham
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485270/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Tottenham-Arsenal
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...er-League-2020-2021-Manchester-City-Tottenham

and to show they don't just put 4231 as default...

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485422/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Tottenham-Liverpool
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485312/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Liverpool-Tottenham
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485363/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Tottenham-Chelsea
 
There are obviously many things we can moan about from yesterday but I have got another 2 that I haven't seen mentioned...

In the first half we had three free kicks in their half... These were opportunities to get some of our players forward, perhaps even touch the ball in their box and put their not great defence under a bit of pressure... Instead we played it sideways and then backwards and then sideways etc.... I just can't understand that game mentality...

Two minutes before lamela got sent off he jumped two footed into a challenge and could easily have been booked for that... He was clearly not in full control and Harry was standing next to him... What did Harry do? Nothing that I saw.... Harry should have been screaming at him to calm down and not get sent off. If not Harry, then someone else but no, nothing.... It's just pathetic and as for the captain he was 50 yards away because we seem to think it's a good idea to have a goalkeeper as captain... Pathetic.
 
INCIDENT: Alexandre Lacazette hits an air shot in the Tottenham penalty area. Davinson Sanchez slides in on the forward, at which point he goes down. Michael Oliver awards a penalty, which Lacazette scores.


DERMOT'S VERDICT: Not a penalty - but VAR cannot overturn Oliver's decision.


DERMOT SAYS: "I think Lacazette did a very interesting interview after the match where he said he felt he was very lucky to get it. I'd agree with him.

"The problem is Michael Oliver is behind the play. He sees Sanchez come across with his boot high, I don't think he sees the air shot. I think he thinks it's Sanchez connecting with Laczaette, takes him down, that's why he gives a penalty.
"He then relays to the VAR what he's seen, how he's seen it, and I think that's backed Paul Tierney into a corner. I don't think he can ask him to go to the monitor because you can't re-referee the football match.
"I think it's just a bit of a glitch in the process, because the referee's made an on-field decision, and the VAR can't re-referee the situation, they've got to stick with the on-field decision. But it's very, very lucky
"Lacazette's gone to play the ball in the air, Sanchez has come across to block, he's a defender, that's what he's trying to do, and Lacazette's momentum has taken him into Sanchez."
 
billyiddo said:
pretty sure you argued that our approach hasn't changed we were just able to play our better attacking players which contradicts your post above saying that if we wanted to play defensively we would have played Bergwijn and Sissoko
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...er-League-2020-2021-Tottenham-Manchester-City
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485240/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Chelsea-Tottenham
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485270/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Tottenham-Arsenal
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...er-League-2020-2021-Manchester-City-Tottenham

and to show they don't just put 4231 as default...

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485422/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Tottenham-Liverpool
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485312/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Liverpool-Tottenham
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485363/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Tottenham-Chelsea
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I would certainly agree we played that way recently vs city and Chelsea 100%
Not when we played city at home though. That was more like a 4-5-1 at best but it’s Symantics .
That city home game and arsenal at home were low block sets up without the attacking players like bale and Moura (we played Tanguy in the 10 if that’s the system with his superb record of 3 career goals before joining us) and Bergwein as wide player
Now we’re playing genuine attacking players.. hell dele is getting some game time too. Just yesterday was super passive across the team.
 
NLS said:
There are obviously many things we can moan about from yesterday but I have got another 2 that I haven't seen mentioned...

In the first half we had three free kicks in their half... These were opportunities to get some of our players forward, perhaps even touch the ball in their box and put their not great defence under a bit of pressure... Instead we played it sideways and then backwards and then sideways etc.... I just can't understand that game meteorology...

Two minutes before lamela got sent off he jumped two footed into a challenge and could easily have been booked for that... He was clearly not in full control and Harry was standing next to him... What did Harry do? Nothing that I saw.... Harry should have been screaming at him to calm down and not get sent off. If not Harry, then someone else but no, nothing.... It's just pathetic and as for the captain he was 50 yards away because we seem to think it's a good idea to have a goalkeeper as captain... Pathetic.
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The free kick one was telling
They had one 5 minutes later and took it ling into our box
That’s when I said in the match thread that must be tactical... it was bizarre not to try to hit a diagonal into the box
 
@Bedfordspurs im not going to debate the finer points of those games you just asked for some examples of 4231 games where we surrendered the initiative - my only point was that setting up how we did v Arsenal yesterday does not prove one way or the other what the approach to the game was. we've played that set up before and with a defensive/cautious approach - formation/line up does not dictate the approach
 
markysimmo said:
INCIDENT: Alexandre Lacazette hits an air shot in the Tottenham pelanty area. Davinson Sanchez slides in on the forward, at which point he goes down. Michael Oliver awards a pelanty, which Lacazette scores.


DERMOT'S VERDICT: Not a pelanty - but VAR cannot overturn Oliver's decision.


DERMOT SAYS: "I think Lacazette did a very interesting interview after the match where he said he felt he was very lucky to get it. I'd agree with him.

"The problem is Michael Oliver is behind the play. He sees Sanchez come across with his boot high, I don't think he sees the air shot. I think he thinks it's Sanchez connecting with Laczaette, takes him down, that's why he gives a pelanty.
"He then relays to the VAR what he's seen, how he's seen it, and I think that's backed Paul Tierney into a corner. I don't think he can ask him to go to the monitor because you can't re-referee the football match.
"I think it's just a bit of a glitch in the process, because the referee's made an on-field decision, and the VAR can't re-referee the situation, they've got to stick with the on-field decision. But it's very, very lucky
"Lacazette's gone to play the ball in the air, Sanchez has come across to block, he's a defender, that's what he's trying to do, and Lacazette's momentum has taken him into Sanchez."
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I’m sorry but that is flimflam!....

‘You can’t re-football match’... That is what happens every time a pen is given/overturned on VAR.

If Oliver looks at it again he can decide whether or not it is a penalty with the benefit of not being 40 yards away without a clear view. He can still stick with his original decision if he wants.
 
billyiddo said:
@Bedfordspurs im not going to debate the finer points of those games you just asked for some examples of 4231 games where we surrendered the initiative - my only point was that setting up how we did v Arsenal yesterday does not prove one way or the other what the approach to the game was. we've played that set up before and with a defensive/cautious approach - formation/line up does not dictate the approach
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But you can't really expect the players that were selected yesterday to play defensively. If you want to concede possession, you don't play Bale. If you want to primarily defend you don't play Bale or Moura. You play those players better suited to defend - i.e. is Sissoko, Bergwyn and even Winks.
 
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