****Tottenham Hotspur v Chelsea****

[DubaiSpur]

I think that's it, it is to a (very) small extent. I think the fact that Chel53a were so defensive is the main factor as to why we were unable to win today, not tiredness. The game at the Bridge is too difficult to call at this stage. They could easily have injuries to Willian, Hazard, Oscar, Costa and Cahill meaning it would be an even better time to play them. That is why I think Poch's approach of taking each game as it comes and securing qualification early is the right one.

I just think to expect anything more than 2 wins from 3 matches (WH, Quarabag and Chel53a) is unrealistic whatever the circumstances. Instead we should be pleased with the result. Sure things could have been done to get the 3 wins, but we don't live in that perfect world where perfection can be expected.

Yeah, but they always are under Mou: they tried the same thing in January, but we smashed 'em. What's the difference between then and now? Maybe they were better prepared for us this time, but they were more united, in better form and more dangerous last time, with Terry and Costa, while we had a worse side than we do now and also conceded first. Maybe it's just probability (i.e, nine times out of ten, defensive tactics work against us, and that one time they didn't, or perhaps that one time something fell for us that ruined Mou's plan), but given our brilliance I don't think we're as vulnerable to teams sitting deep now than we were a while ago.

I'm not saying we should expect perfection from what is an evolving side, and like I said, I'm okay with two wins and a draw, given that it could well have been two losses, one in Qarabag and one here. However, as long as EL games affect us to any extent, and as long as we can't reliably put away teams in periodic crises like Chelsea, we won't be the finished article that competes at the very top, as suggestions around us have indicated. That was the initial comment which....

Careful. This sort of logic and perspective can get you labelled around here.

....drew @thfcsteff 's simmering resentment, in a manner that reminds me amusingly of my own eternal anger about six months ago.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Also, everyone around us dropped points today. Is it a reprieve given our own points dropped, or an opportunity missed? Careful which way you fall, lest you invoke ire one way or another.

 

[thfcsteff]

Also, everyone around us dropped points today. Is it a reprieve given our own points dropped, or an opportunity missed? Careful which way you fall, lest you invoke ire one way or another.

OK, my final handbag here. It's not 'ire' or 'simmering resentment' more than disbelief at how the way Poch set this past week out has been scrutinized. Were we a bit tired? Yes. Does that mean that Poch 'made a mistake' (as both Modric and you have inferred at certain times) by bringing 8 of the full squad to Caravan? No. Not in my opinion. Look, again, if thats HONESTLY how you view it, then great. But I disagree. You made some mention of us 'not being the finished article if we cannot put teams like Chelski away in crisis, etc, etc'...here's the rub. I DON'T believe we ARE the finished article. I trust you have seen me mention a few times that we are, IMO, at least 8 months ahead of where I expected us to be. Maybe that's the difference. You want it now now now, I am happy to take another year because the foundation of what I'm seeing can last us for years IMO...

 

[Raziel]

OK, my final handbag here. It's not 'ire' or 'simmering resentment' more than disbelief at how the way Poch set this past week out has been scrutinized. Were we a bit tired? Yes. Does that mean that Poch 'made a mistake' (as both Modric and you have inferred at certain times) by bringing 8 of the full squad to Caravan? No. Not in my opinion. Look, again, if thats HONESTLY how you view it, then great. But I disagree.

As was said earlier in the thread . because you disagree with Poch's approach to this week, doesn't automatically mean he was wrong.

That will be determined at the end of the season, personally I think all of us would have taken 1 loss, 2 draws, 1 win against Manure, Scum, Cheat$ki & City after 14 games (with no other losses) by the end of November, qualified for knockout stage in Europe and with no huge games for 6-8 weeks ahead of us.

The league is a marathon, and I think that's exactly how Poch is playing it ...

 

[DubaiSpur]

Were we a bit tired? Yes. Does that mean that Poch 'made a mistake' (as both Modric and you have inferred at certain times) by bringing 8 of the full squad to Caravan? No. Not in my opinion.

In reaction to a post by AdamB that asked why Poch took Alderweireld and co. to Qarabalalalag, I said this....

Well, I'll put it down to us needing to qualify here (as opposed to next month), so that the December schedule isn't too troublesome when it comes to the game against Monaco: having qualified, we're now in a position to play Onomah and co. in that game. If he still ends up going with the likes of Toby-Jan there, though....then, you may have a point.

...which, I'll point out, you liked. Today, I've said repeatedly that his decision to take the team to Azerbaijan mid-week was justified in light of the very tough game Qarabag gave us, which we could well have lost had we sent Ehiogu and the kids.
Funnily enough, me and @Modric THFC differ on this. Modric thinks Poch could have gone through by winning or drawing the home game against Monaco, and sod the Qarabag expedition. I think it's wiser that he chose to qualify on Wednesday, as opposed to waiting and adding another important fixture to an already groaning December schedule.

The 'inferrences' you allege exist in my post are simply not there, mate. I'm still somewhat disheartened that we couldn't steal a march on everyone and take points from Chelsea while they're down, but that's not the same as saying I blame Poch for taking the team to the Caucasus.

Look, again, if thats HONESTLY how you view it, then great. But I disagree. You made some mention of us 'not being the finished article if we cannot put teams like Chelski away in crisis, etc, etc'...here's the rub. I DON'T believe we ARE the finished article. I trust you have seen me mention a few times that we are, IMO, at least 8 months ahead of where I expected us to be. Maybe that's the difference. You want it now now now, I am happy to take another year because the foundation of what I'm seeing can last us for years IMO...

No, I honestly haven't seen you mention that we aren't the finished article yet. But, either way, we can't pretend to be it until we put away teams like this, I'm sure you'll agree? Yet, many of our fans seem to think we are. That's what I was getting at. And we can't compete for the top four on a consistent basis until we manage to put EL exertions into a separate category, disaggregated from our PL preparations. As for me wanting things 'now now now'....the 'foundations' of what I thought was a great team that would last us years were laid in 2009-2010. That team was slaughtered, left dead and buried less than three years later. The lesson I took from that was simply to wish for the club to take opportunities as they come: nothing more, nothing less. That we're building something great now is undisputable, and I'm happy it's being built: however, I'm not particularly convinced by the idea that it can last 'years', and thus I don't see the large space available for us to develop in isolation that you clearly do. Thus, it's less a case of 'now now now' then wondering how long the team will last if black swan events or continued 5th - 6th place finishes in these lean inter-stadium years take their toll on either our coaching staff or our team itself.

OK, my final handbag here. It's not 'ire' or 'simmering resentment' more than disbelief at how the way Poch set this past week out has been scrutinized.

Whatever, mate. Sorry for getting in the way. Carry on.

 

[SubZero]

I am quite happy with a point seeing how the game panned out. If anything, we went from showing them too little respect to showing them too much. Chelsea may be in a mire right now, but one thing you can't do is overlook their strength in passing and fast counter attacks. This is not the game to try new fancy flicks or things outside your envelope, they can punish you for a mistake made in your own half. But at the same time you have to trust yourself and your abilties without getting arrogant.

To me, we first went out for a d*ck slanging competition with a team of slightly better passers than ours, tried to tiki-taka them out. Then we had a couple of situations which led to dangerous counters (Son and Dier), so we shut it down to the extent that we lost our, in lack of better words, release and penetration. Ironically it seems that when you're trying to play safe, you're at your most vulnerable. An erroneous sideways or backward pass is much worse than a forward going one. But if we were going to win this one, we had to play to win and take a few chances. It looked like we chose to play it safe(ish) after a while against a team who once again "parked the bus". It took them 85 minutes to get their arse dragged out of their own half. The result was fair enough and seemed to fit both teams well.

On another note, I don't understand the need for long balls from own half if you're not facing a team much better than yourself. Firstly we don't have all that height up front, and secondly it will more often than not result in loss of posession. Few things if any are more tiring than ball chasing, and while their forwards are somewhat toothless at the moment, they still have great vision and speed. And Chelsea know how to break momentum. We can never compete with their cheating, diving and feigning injuries, this not being their worst game by far.

A great man once said: "If thou art more afraid of losing than thou art eager for winning, often thou will do neither". Or I may or may not have made that up.

 

[Armchair Expert]

I am quite happy with a point seeing how the game panned out. If anything, we went from showing them too little respect to showing them too much. Chel53a may be in a mire right now, but one thing you can't do is overlook their strength in passing and fast counter attacks. This is not the game to try new fancy flicks or things outside your envelope, they can punish you for a mistake made in your own half. But at the same time you have to trust yourself and your abilties without getting arrogant.

To me, we first went out for a d*ck slanging competition with a team of slightly better passers than ours, tried to tiki-taka them out. Then we had a couple of situations which led to dangerous counters (Son and Dier), so we shut it down to the extent that we lost our, in lack of better words, release and penetration. Ironically it seems that when you're trying to play safe, you're at your most vulnerable. An erroneous sideways or backward pass is much worse than a forward going one. But if we were going to win this one, we had to play to win and take a few chances. It looked like we chose to play it safe(ish) after a while against a team who once again "parked the bus". It took them 85 minutes to get their arse dragged out of their own half. The result was fair enough and seemed to fit both teams well.

On another note, I don't understand the need for long balls from own half if you're not facing a team much better than yourself. Firstly we don't have all that height up front, and secondly it will more often than not result in loss of posession. Few things if any are more tiring than ball chasing, and while their forwards are somewhat toothless at the moment, they still have great vision and speed. And Chel53a know how to break momentum. We can never compete with their cheating, diving and feigning injuries, this not being their worst game by far.

A great man once said: "If thou art more afraid of losing than thou art eager for winning, often thou will do neither". Or I may or may not have made that up.

Decent post. I think though there is a rational for the long balls. Against a team we are struggling to break down, our usual levels of energy and aggression suggest we have probably a better than 50% chance of winning the second ball. In a few seconds we could latch onto a defensive clearance and have possession on the edge of the opposition penalty area with their shape and poise compromised.

I think the same applies at the other end: especially against West Ham i felt we were happy enough to concede the first header from balls launched long, and concentrated more on regaining possession in the next phase of play.

 

[AuroRaman]

They have football on TV in Budapest you know.

If your other half can't give you 2 hours, give her a kick in the sponge and watch it anyway.

There are lots of other halves, but only one Tottingham Hottingspurs

Hahaha! We were walking around and so many places were showing the game. The night we got engaged, we were in NZ and I put her to bed then watched us complete a 0-0 draw against Sunderland in a local bar. She's got a lot of credit points over the years, to be fair to her. The slag.

 

[thfcsteff]

In reaction to a post by AdamB that asked why Poch took Alderweireld and co. to Qarabalalalag, I said this....



...which, I'll point out, you liked. Today, I've said repeatedly that his decision to take the team to Azerbaijan mid-week was justified in light of the very tough game Qarabag gave us, which we could well have lost had we sent Ehiogu and the kids.
Funnily enough, me and @Modric THFC differ on this. Modric thinks Poch could have gone through by winning or drawing the home game against Monaco, and sod the Qarabag expedition. I think it's wiser that he chose to qualify on Wednesday, as opposed to waiting and adding another important fixture to an already groaning December schedule.

The 'inferrences' you allege exist in my post are simply not there, mate. I'm still somewhat disheartened that we couldn't steal a march on everyone and take points from Chel53a while they're down, but that's not the same as saying I blame Poch for taking the team to the Caucasus.



No, I honestly haven't seen you mention that we aren't the finished article yet. But, either way, we can't pretend to be it until we put away teams like this, I'm sure you'll agree? Yet, many of our fans seem to think we are. That's what I was getting at. And we can't compete for the top four on a consistent basis until we manage to put EL exertions into a separate category, disaggregated from our PL preparations. As for me wanting things 'now now now'....the 'foundations' of what I thought was a great team that would last us years were laid in 2009-2010. That team was slaughtered, left dead and buried less than three years later. The lesson I took from that was simply to wish for the club to take opportunities as they come: nothing more, nothing less. That we're building something great now is undisputable, and I'm happy it's being built: however, I'm not particularly convinced by the idea that it can last 'years', and thus I don't see the large space available for us to develop in isolation that you clearly do. Thus, it's less a case of 'now now now' then wondering how long the team will last if black swan events or continued 5th - 6th place finishes in these lean inter-stadium years take their toll on either our coaching staff or our team itself.



Whatever, mate. Sorry for getting in the way. Carry on.

I have come to the conclusion that we carry very different ways of living and viewing life. All good. But I must just leave you with this. Once the game was over, after two hours sleep, it was 6am and freezing. I decided to gather up the pooch and take our daily 3 mile stroll early instead of late. The light was beautiful, just sensational, even better than the sunset light a couple
of days prior. Here's a photo... The only incandessance you will see edges her fur . Be well...

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Yeah, but they always are under Mou: they tried the same thing in January, but we smashed 'em. What's the difference between then and now? Maybe they were better prepared for us this time, but they were more united, in better form and more dangerous last time, with Terry and Costa, while we had a worse side than we do now and also conceded first. Maybe it's just probability (i.e, nine times out of ten, defensive tactics work against us, and that one time they didn't, or perhaps that one time something fell for us that ruined Mou's plan), but given our brilliance I don't think we're as vulnerable to teams sitting deep now than we were a while ago.

I'm not saying we should expect perfection from what is an evolving side, and like I said, I'm okay with two wins and a draw, given that it could well have been two losses, one in Qarabag and one here. However, as long as EL games affect us to any extent, and as long as we can't reliably put away teams in periodic crises like Chel53a, we won't be the finished article that competes at the very top, as suggestions around us have indicated. That was the initial comment which....

....drew @thfcsteff 's simmering resentment, in a manner that reminds me amusingly of my own eternal anger about six months ago.

Yes they always are, but I think the difference is that today's team were far more defensive than the side we smashed in January. Chelsea last season won the EPL having lost games against us, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and West Brom and drawing games with such illustrious teams as Sunderland. Not taking advantage of teams in poor form happens to the best teams so I see no reason as to why we should be different.

And we are far from being the finished article. I think it is unfair to expect the youngest team in the EPL to be anywhere near the finished article.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think we all know it's incredibly hard breaking down a team that simply doesn't want to go forward and attack. "It takes two to tango" as the saying goes

Chelsea won't play like that in many games but for them it's actual progress this season and for us it's a challenge as to how we break them down. I have to say I can't think of any other side who has played like that against us this season so it was a curveball

We dominated the key area of misfield but with them being so deep it was incredibly hard to get round the back. At that point you either need a worldie, a lucky strike or a mistake from them

The chances for son were both incredibly high quality passes to him and he does excel in those positions and maybe should have put one away in a game of such fine margins

I think we had a problem with Mason. He played ok but was stuck half way from me between the defensive role and the attacking role and I couldn't work out who was meant to be the attacking one of him and Dembele. I'm a fan of mason but he needs a more dinstinct role. Lamella came on and out some tidy passes but I would have preferred him to start (and I'm a critic of his)

This for me now is a time to reflect on where we have come in what is still a short space of time under Poch. We now have a run of on paper easier games but we know that won't be the case. The belief is there with the players but the farcical schedule really doesn't help

 

[Robbo]

Watched the game now.

Can't really complain about the draw today, tactically they were better than us. We also looked tired in the second half.

Have to say though, I've never seen a team hoof the ball this much since I played Norwegian sixth division football many years ago. They made Stoke look like Barcelona today. I think Hoofski is a more fitting name for them, to be fair.

I expected the typical Mourinho park the bus, cynical, cheating win at all cost performance they gave us, but the hoofing...well, they surprised me there.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

I have come to the conclusion that we carry very different ways of living and viewing life. All good. But I must just leave you with this. Once the game was over, after two hours sleep, it was 6am and freezing. I decided to gather up the pooch and take our daily 3 mile stroll early instead of late. The light was beautiful, just sensational, even better than the sunset light a couple
of days prior. Here's a photo...View attachment 2539 The only incandessance you will see edges her fur . Be well...

Now that's a lovely dog!

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Watched the game now.

Can't really complain about the draw today, tactically they were better than us. We also looked tired in the second half.

Have to say though, I've never seen a team hoof the ball this much since I played Norwegian sixth division football many years ago. They made Stoke look like Barcelona today. I think Hoofski is a more fitting name for them, to be fair.

I expected the typical Mourinho park the bus, cynical, cheating win at all cost performance they gave us, but the hoofing...well, they surprised me there.

I think the long ball is a counter to our press. Trevor Sinclair was doing a piece on this on MOTD last week saying that West Ham just needed to hoof it up the pitch to negate our press creating chances the idea being that if you have no options when being pressed just hoof it up the pitch to avoid being caught in possession.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think the long ball is a counter to our press. Trevor Sinclair was doing a piece on this on MOTD last week saying that West Ham just needed to hoof it up the pitch to negate our press creating chances the idea being that if you have no options when being pressed just hoof it up the pitch to avoid being caught in possession.

It's right but you need pace to turn us over

You also need direction in your passing

I thought they were less long ball than I expected to be honest

I don't know how you counter our pressing game other than try to turn us over but with Tony sweeping it's nigh on impossible

 

[Robbo]

I think the long ball is a counter to our press. Trevor Sinclair was doing a piece on this on MOTD last week saying that West Ham just needed to hoof it up the pitch to negate our press creating chances the idea being that if you have no options when being pressed just hoof it up the pitch to avoid being caught in possession.

Fair enough, and I agree it worked very well for them, but they hoofed it literally all the time. Not only when they were under pressure, they just seemed to kick the ball as high and far as possible whenever given the chance - hoping Oscar, Willian or Hazard would get to it.

Shame we didn't get the early goal to force them to play football.

But shows how far we've come when the lottery winners from Fulham take their multi-billion pound squad to WHL, and the best they can come up with to counter us is hoofball.

 

[paxtonwolf]

Forgot who it was that alluded to it.
But for me Chelsea today paid us the ultimate compliment by coming and parking the bus, using some sort of 4-6-0 formation, something they would probably have to do at Old Trafford or the Etihad...well, maybe not OT this season.
Thanks for the compliment Jose, we truly have come a long way in such a short time

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

It's right but you need pace to turn us over

You also need direction in your passing

I thought they were less long ball than I expected to be honest

I don't know how you counter our pressing game other than try to turn us over but with Tony sweeping it's nigh on impossible

I agree with that but they weren't trying to turn us over. I don't think they cared in that I don't think they really wanted to win. Not losing was all they were worried about.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Fair enough, and I agree it worked very well for them, but they hoofed it literally all the time. Not only when they were under pressure, they just seemed to kick the ball as high and far as possible whenever given the chance - hoping Oscar, Willian or Hazard would get to it.

Shame we didn't get the early goal to force them to play football.

But shows how far we've come when the lottery winners from Fulham take their multi-billion pound squad to WHL, and the best they can come up with to counter us is hoofball.

Completely agree with you. This is why I am so glad we don't have a pragmatic coach like Mourinho!

 

[Nigeyman]

who's the bitc* ?