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Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - Licence To Stand
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
Daisuk
Dimitar Berbatov
Yeah, the one we have noe is somewhere in between the very low one a couple of years ago. It's one of my pet peeves, I really loved the old high angle, and hoping it will be equally high in the new stadium.
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
While looking for something else I found this:
Thanks for posting!
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
My guess would be it would be at a similar height to the Emirates.
Some stuff from the trust:
Head of Ticketing and Membership at Tottenham, Ian Murphy (IM), THFC’s Head of Supporter Services, Jonathan Waite (JW), Trust co-chairs Martin Cloake (MC) and Kat Law (KL)
5. New stadium
IM observed it was going up very fast with the last levels of concrete almost completed. Those at the West Ham game this weekend would notice the progress since the last home match at White Hart Lane.
IM explained that the virtual reality suite (SPVRS) for the sale of 8,000 ‘premium’ (hospitality/corporate) seats is open and going well. Part of the Premium offering was ‘access’ to away tickets. At present, executive ST holders are entitled to 9% of the away tickets pot. This is likely to increase to 12-13% once the new stadium is opened.
IM stressed that ‘Premium’ was not a new offering. It was the blanket term for all hospitality and corporate members. At present, there was no loyalty points scheme in place for box holders etc. and they were entitled to 9% of all away allocations. The principle was not new.
What was new was the potential increase in percentage from 9% to 12-13% once the new stadium opened, representing a pro rata increment to the current arrangement. And that was news to the Trust on the night, too.
KL reacted on behalf of THST by requesting further discussion with the ticketing and hospitality teams around this. She felt that it should be possible to sell premium packages in a state of the art stadium without having to use the sweetener of access to an already in demand pool of away tickets. They were selling a home experience, after all. It was also pointed out that while the percentage increase was pro-rata, the fact that away allocations would remain the same meant there would be fewer tickets available for non-Premium members.
Members suggested introducing a loyalty points scheme for premium seat holders to bring those in line with General Admission members.
There will be much more discussion around this to come with THST’s initial position being against any increase in the percentage of away tickets reserved for Premium members.
IM wanted to reassure those present that general admission fans had not been forgotten in the new stadium and hoped to have more news in the spring. There would be designated ‘home’ and ‘family’ areas. Lessons had been learned from new venues around the world, and some closer to home.
As regards allocating Season Tickets in the new ground, current thinking was that existing Season Ticket holders and those at the top of the waiting list would be asked where they’d like to sit and who they’d like to sit with. Wembley showed some useful patterns in this respect.
Pricing and concession areas were under review.
IM confirmed the approximate figures for Season Tickets in the new stadium. There are currently c 21,000 ST holders, excluding the ‘Premium’ members. Rough figures indicated they were looking at increasing that to 40,000 in the new stadium, excluding the 8,000 ‘Premium’ seats.
8. Safe Standing
Recent movement around Safe Standing was remarked on by Trust members, with the subject included on the Premier League Shareholders Meeting Agenda for the first time this week. Those present on the night agreed that a Safe Standing area in the new ground would be a positive move. This was about choice: the choice to stand and the choice to sit.
While a change in primary legislation was thought to have been required to permit standing at Premier League games, there is a growing question as to whether rail seating should be regarded as sitting or standing. If it is agreed to be equivalent to sitting, then legislative change might not be needed.
THST felt it important to clarify a few facts about Safe Standing so everyone understood what they were calling for. It was likely the ratio of a standing space to a seat would be 1:1, so it was likely there would be no reduction in price for tickets in a standing area. By opening a dedicated standing area, it was also likely local authorities and Clubs would look to clamp down on standing elsewhere around stadiums.
JW confirmed that, should Safe Standing get the green light, 7,200 places in the lower section of the 17,000 single tier end could be converted for this purpose. The rake in the new stadium was too steep for this to apply to the entire end. Several present questioned whether this would be a large enough area and why the rake had been designed at such an angle. The Club have been to see specific standing areas at Celtic, Dortmund, PSV and FC Koln to assess the operational requirements.
JW felt any progression towards permitting Safe Standing would be lengthy, safety driven and safety focused.
12. Community activity and the new stadium
Would there be increased support for and inclusion of the local community with the opening of the new stadium? IM and JW ran through what is already being done. THFC works with the five adjacent boroughs and with local community centres at present. The work of the Foundation is well documented and widely considered to be outstanding. (MC recommended “And The Sun Shines Now” by Adrian Tempany for those wanting to learn more about the Foundation and its contribution to and positive impact on the Haringey community).
IM pointed out that planning approval conditions for the new stadium (Section 106) require THFC to involve local residents in the new development. Tickets would be made available for local residents under the terms of the S106.
Another member present pointed out that the profile of fans attending matches does match that of local residents. IM/JW advised that THFC tracks the demographics of fans; and that there are 200 languages spoken and 75 nationalities living within a ten mile radius of the ground.
The balance is to embrace the local community and also support loyal ticket-buying fans, whether or not they live locally.
15. NFL in the new stadium
Would Tottenham Hotspur members and / or Season Ticket holders be given priority booking for any NFL games at the new stadium? IM said this was being explored but the NFL teams already had their own ST holders to accommodate and consider. It may be possible to run something along the lines of O2’s Priority Moments scheme but this is yet to be bottomed out.
16. The Tottenham Experience and Museum
JW explained that Spurs have appointed Mather and Co to design the Experience and Museum at the new stadium. Mather are vastly experienced in this field, having worked on the museums at Porto and the AELTC (Wimbledon) to name 2 recent projects. They are now ready to speak with fans in an attempt to capture supporter experiences of White Hart Lane to feed into their final designs. Volunteers were encouraged to speak with JW at the close of the session should they wish to be involved in this consultation and this proved to be a popular request.
Head of Ticketing and Membership at Tottenham, Ian Murphy (IM), THFC’s Head of Supporter Services, Jonathan Waite (JW), Trust co-chairs Martin Cloake (MC) and Kat Law (KL)
5. New stadium
IM observed it was going up very fast with the last levels of concrete almost completed. Those at the West Ham game this weekend would notice the progress since the last home match at White Hart Lane.
IM explained that the virtual reality suite (SPVRS) for the sale of 8,000 ‘premium’ (hospitality/corporate) seats is open and going well. Part of the Premium offering was ‘access’ to away tickets. At present, executive ST holders are entitled to 9% of the away tickets pot. This is likely to increase to 12-13% once the new stadium is opened.
IM stressed that ‘Premium’ was not a new offering. It was the blanket term for all hospitality and corporate members. At present, there was no loyalty points scheme in place for box holders etc. and they were entitled to 9% of all away allocations. The principle was not new.
What was new was the potential increase in percentage from 9% to 12-13% once the new stadium opened, representing a pro rata increment to the current arrangement. And that was news to the Trust on the night, too.
KL reacted on behalf of THST by requesting further discussion with the ticketing and hospitality teams around this. She felt that it should be possible to sell premium packages in a state of the art stadium without having to use the sweetener of access to an already in demand pool of away tickets. They were selling a home experience, after all. It was also pointed out that while the percentage increase was pro-rata, the fact that away allocations would remain the same meant there would be fewer tickets available for non-Premium members.
Members suggested introducing a loyalty points scheme for premium seat holders to bring those in line with General Admission members.
There will be much more discussion around this to come with THST’s initial position being against any increase in the percentage of away tickets reserved for Premium members.
IM wanted to reassure those present that general admission fans had not been forgotten in the new stadium and hoped to have more news in the spring. There would be designated ‘home’ and ‘family’ areas. Lessons had been learned from new venues around the world, and some closer to home.
As regards allocating Season Tickets in the new ground, current thinking was that existing Season Ticket holders and those at the top of the waiting list would be asked where they’d like to sit and who they’d like to sit with. Wembley showed some useful patterns in this respect.
Pricing and concession areas were under review.
IM confirmed the approximate figures for Season Tickets in the new stadium. There are currently c 21,000 ST holders, excluding the ‘Premium’ members. Rough figures indicated they were looking at increasing that to 40,000 in the new stadium, excluding the 8,000 ‘Premium’ seats.
8. Safe Standing
Recent movement around Safe Standing was remarked on by Trust members, with the subject included on the Premier League Shareholders Meeting Agenda for the first time this week. Those present on the night agreed that a Safe Standing area in the new ground would be a positive move. This was about choice: the choice to stand and the choice to sit.
While a change in primary legislation was thought to have been required to permit standing at Premier League games, there is a growing question as to whether rail seating should be regarded as sitting or standing. If it is agreed to be equivalent to sitting, then legislative change might not be needed.
THST felt it important to clarify a few facts about Safe Standing so everyone understood what they were calling for. It was likely the ratio of a standing space to a seat would be 1:1, so it was likely there would be no reduction in price for tickets in a standing area. By opening a dedicated standing area, it was also likely local authorities and Clubs would look to clamp down on standing elsewhere around stadiums.
JW confirmed that, should Safe Standing get the green light, 7,200 places in the lower section of the 17,000 single tier end could be converted for this purpose. The rake in the new stadium was too steep for this to apply to the entire end. Several present questioned whether this would be a large enough area and why the rake had been designed at such an angle. The Club have been to see specific standing areas at Celtic, Dortmund, PSV and FC Koln to assess the operational requirements.
JW felt any progression towards permitting Safe Standing would be lengthy, safety driven and safety focused.
12. Community activity and the new stadium
Would there be increased support for and inclusion of the local community with the opening of the new stadium? IM and JW ran through what is already being done. THFC works with the five adjacent boroughs and with local community centres at present. The work of the Foundation is well documented and widely considered to be outstanding. (MC recommended “And The Sun Shines Now” by Adrian Tempany for those wanting to learn more about the Foundation and its contribution to and positive impact on the Haringey community).
IM pointed out that planning approval conditions for the new stadium (Section 106) require THFC to involve local residents in the new development. Tickets would be made available for local residents under the terms of the S106.
Another member present pointed out that the profile of fans attending matches does match that of local residents. IM/JW advised that THFC tracks the demographics of fans; and that there are 200 languages spoken and 75 nationalities living within a ten mile radius of the ground.
The balance is to embrace the local community and also support loyal ticket-buying fans, whether or not they live locally.
15. NFL in the new stadium
Would Tottenham Hotspur members and / or Season Ticket holders be given priority booking for any NFL games at the new stadium? IM said this was being explored but the NFL teams already had their own ST holders to accommodate and consider. It may be possible to run something along the lines of O2’s Priority Moments scheme but this is yet to be bottomed out.
16. The Tottenham Experience and Museum
JW explained that Spurs have appointed Mather and Co to design the Experience and Museum at the new stadium. Mather are vastly experienced in this field, having worked on the museums at Porto and the AELTC (Wimbledon) to name 2 recent projects. They are now ready to speak with fans in an attempt to capture supporter experiences of White Hart Lane to feed into their final designs. Volunteers were encouraged to speak with JW at the close of the session should they wish to be involved in this consultation and this proved to be a popular request.
Wish I'd been there representing Spurs.
The whole meeting could have been done with a quick "What the fudge's it got to do with you?" and everyone could have got back to doing important stuff.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
the attitude of entitlement is staggering
Spur of the moment
Frederic Kanoute
True enough but without the fans there is no club. Any organisation that fails to listen to their customers does so at its peril. History is littered with examples of arrogance like that, so it's to Tottenham's immense credit - as well as in its commercial interests - that they do, even though it be through gritted teeth.
Which customers are the ones that matter do you think?
The ones that turn up at Trust meetings asking childish questions about transfers and publishing typo-ridden minutes or the ones turning up at Spvrs with open cheque books?
All this stuff with the Trust has nothing to do with listening to customers and everything to do with PR.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
I think its more a case of without an audience there is no business
parklane1
Tony Galvin
Full of their own importance, but to most of the fans who i travel with the trust is full of people with their heads up their arses.
Lemonade Money
Les Medley
At least they're flexible.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Well, I've finally seen the day when even a completely powerless, figurehead supporters' trust *asking questions* is considered 'too entitled'.
I wonder how my fellow fans who feel this way actually cope when they look at Germany and see the ordinary punters actually owning the majority stakes in their clubs, requiring the majority of what their clubs do to be run by them first. Or at Madrid, Barca and Bilbao, all socio-owned clubs where the members dictate club policy - including the election of the club president. Or at Italy, where the ultras can literally demand that players be sold or retained and threaten consequences which usually ensure club acquiescence. Do they experience intense, angry heartburn at the uppity 'general admission' customers with their cheap tickets, beer in the stands and genuine stake in club affairs, perhaps?
True enough. Sad that the overwhelming majority of fans in the UK are now 'customers' by most definitions, but at the very least, the clubs gritting their teeth and doing the perfunctory PR outreaches they do keeps the proles content. At its heart, it's something that's in the club's own interest, so good on the club for recognizing that and doing at least that much on a regular basis - and doing so with a bit more sincerity than the likes of the Dildo Brothers at West Ham or the blokes that own United.
The latter, obviously. However, it's a double-edged sword making the club-fan relationship as perfunctory as that. Go far enough, and the 'customers' that are left start behaving like *actual* customers - expecting continuous results and continuous entertainment for their pound, complaining when their (varying) standards aren't met and utterly disinterested in creating the noise or the atmosphere that makes the game so attractive to the TV companies and advertisers that market their product. What's left of the idea of a synergistic relationship between club and fan disappears, and is replaced by a corporation expected to provide a product to the consumers that pay for it - no excuses accepted.
I wonder how my fellow fans who feel this way actually cope when they look at Germany and see the ordinary punters actually owning the majority stakes in their clubs, requiring the majority of what their clubs do to be run by them first. Or at Madrid, Barca and Bilbao, all socio-owned clubs where the members dictate club policy - including the election of the club president. Or at Italy, where the ultras can literally demand that players be sold or retained and threaten consequences which usually ensure club acquiescence. Do they experience intense, angry heartburn at the uppity 'general admission' customers with their cheap tickets, beer in the stands and genuine stake in club affairs, perhaps?
True enough. Sad that the overwhelming majority of fans in the UK are now 'customers' by most definitions, but at the very least, the clubs gritting their teeth and doing the perfunctory PR outreaches they do keeps the proles content. At its heart, it's something that's in the club's own interest, so good on the club for recognizing that and doing at least that much on a regular basis - and doing so with a bit more sincerity than the likes of the Dildo Brothers at West Ham or the blokes that own United.
The latter, obviously. However, it's a double-edged sword making the club-fan relationship as perfunctory as that. Go far enough, and the 'customers' that are left start behaving like *actual* customers - expecting continuous results and continuous entertainment for their pound, complaining when their (varying) standards aren't met and utterly disinterested in creating the noise or the atmosphere that makes the game so attractive to the TV companies and advertisers that market their product. What's left of the idea of a synergistic relationship between club and fan disappears, and is replaced by a corporation expected to provide a product to the consumers that pay for it - no excuses accepted.
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They own the clubs, they can do whatever they want.Well, I've finally seen the day when even a completely powerless, figurehead supporters' trust *asking questions* is considered 'too entitled'.
I wonder how my fellow fans who feel this way actually cope when they look at Germany and see the ordinary punters actually owning the majority stakes in their clubs, requiring the majority of what their clubs do to be run by them first. Intense, angry heartburn at the uppity 'general admission' customers with their cheap tickets, beer in the stands and genuine stake in club affairs, perhaps?
I certainly wouldn't want your average football fan having anything to do with running Spurs though.
I don't have any issue with that.
I don't support Spurs because Levy gets a minion to sit down and feed me tea/biscuits whilst pretending to listen to my petty grievances, I support them because they're Spurs. That won't change no matter how professionally the club is run.
If I wanted the emotional and the business sides to mix I'd go and buy a non-league club and mix them myself.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
I amended that point to include more examples. In the Italian case, for instance, the ultras don't actually own their clubs, but they can certainly influence them to the extent that they acquiesce to most of what the ultras demand an awful lot of the time. When you compare that to an utterly powerless supporters' trust simply asking questions which the club voluntarily answers, which comes off as more 'entitled'?
You're not talking about a club being run professionally, though. You're talking about a club being completely turned into a corporation that simply provides a product that neutral consumers then pay for and expect to be delivered reliably and consistently - that goes a good deal further than the former scenario. In the latter, you're talking about a stadium of mute spectators expecting their money's worth when watching games and angrily asking Citizens' Advice to step in and enforce consumer protection laws when they feel Tottenham Hotspur PLC failed to provide them exactly what they specified they would. So, I guess my question would be, do you consider yourself a 'supporter' of MetLife, Inc.? Or Pepsico, Inc.? or Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu Limited? If you've ever paid for their services or products, after all, you've entered into exactly the same sort of relationship you state you have 'no problem' with when it comes to that between customers and the corporation that used to be Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.
Look, why you support Spurs is unique to you, as it is to all of us. You are a fellow supporter of the same club I support, in every sense of the word. I'm just trying to make you see that what you do when you support Spurs is radically different to what the relationship would be in a coldly businesslike company-customer relationship. It isn't something you'd likely be fine with, were it to happen. And, even assuming for the sake of argument that you would, the 'business' side of the club would undoubtedly suffer were the actual relationship between the club and the fans to become what you've suggested - a club with a stadium that immediately empties when the punters are remotely dissastisfied with what they're seeing, and is otherwise mostly silent except when the spectators feel entertained enough to have gotten their money's worth, isn't exactly one that the cameras and the advertisers will flock to. You can play the most beautiful football in the world, but with a largely empty or silent concrete bowl, you're going to struggle to raise any sort of excitement even if the commentators on TV scream like banshees.
A milder degree of wrong is not right. The Trust are, as responses from the club have often shown, an irritant and every second they spend in front of a club executive is a second that could be spent doing some work that goes towards making the club more successful.
For me, taking the emotion out (for the club's owners and execs) is running the club more professionally.
You're clearly a far more emotional person than I am. I don't need to club to listen to, care about, or do anything for the supporters for me to enjoy supporting the team. The directors have a responsibility to run the club in as professional a manner as possible - if fans lose the emotional aspect of their support because the club isn't giving them a reacharound every now and then, that's on them.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
@DubaiSpur
thats already happened, it happened as soon as Scholar turned us into a PLC, it was inevitable the moment the game went professional
this is a terrible idea, I wouldn't want emotive amateurs running the business I work for
I've seen this opinion many times, but i'm not convinced there is anything to it, it's the players that bring the interest, the action on the pitch, not bobble hats and half and half scarves in the audience, there is a reason they dim the lights in the theatre
yep, my relationship with Spurs is the same as the one I have with Brewdog and Apple
thats already happened, it happened as soon as Scholar turned us into a PLC, it was inevitable the moment the game went professional
this is a terrible idea, I wouldn't want emotive amateurs running the business I work for
I've seen this opinion many times, but i'm not convinced there is anything to it, it's the players that bring the interest, the action on the pitch, not bobble hats and half and half scarves in the audience, there is a reason they dim the lights in the theatre
yep, my relationship with Spurs is the same as the one I have with Brewdog and Apple
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Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
also, as a general overview to my annoyance at the trust
a club in our situation will only be as successful on the pitch as they are off of it, the business comes first and the sport rides along in the slipstream
ENIC have shown that they know exactly what they are doing, they have a clear goal and have made steady progress towards it, whilst turning a profit
to question them is churlish is best, and more likely than not, rude
a club in our situation will only be as successful on the pitch as they are off of it, the business comes first and the sport rides along in the slipstream
ENIC have shown that they know exactly what they are doing, they have a clear goal and have made steady progress towards it, whilst turning a profit
to question them is churlish is best, and more likely than not, rude
But I don't want to wait for transfer news
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Ah, but that's the sticker - I don't actually think it's wrong at all. Still, even allowing for your view, every second the club execs spend politely discussing things with the 'irritants' from the General Admissions class is another second the club keeps them feeling like their views matter in the running of something that they clearly spend an irrational amount of time thinking about and being invested in, out of proportion even to the money they spend being customers paying for the product in and of itself. That could be the difference in terms of retaining some of them even when the finances start to bite or more pressing priorities occupy their attention.
Without a doubt. However, as I mentioned, can I safely say that you enjoy 'supporting' your bank, your local, your accountant, your preferred supermarket and so on? It's the same relationship between the service/product provider and customer you're describing here, and none of them give a solitary damn about your views on things beyond ensuring your custom, similar to the club's owners and the execs running Spurs. Your earnest 'support' for your supermarket must be enjoyable to you to some degree, I'm presuming - over and above the simple payment for products provided, which may vary in quality similar to how the football we play varies in quality.
I guess what I'm driving at is, you pay to be a spectator, essentially - what turns you from a spectator into a supporter? When the football becomes utter brick and the team struggle through absolutely dreadful times, why do you keep showing up when the product ceases to satisfy on an aesthetic level? When you go to an away game in the post-industrial north and stand there in the freezing rain watching eleven dreadful players limply lose to inferior opposition in the driving mud, while some tattooed psycho urinates in your back pocket (possibly - I may be extrapolating from on or two away experiences from different times ), what keeps you there?What difference is there between supporting a football club and being a simple, expectant customer of the service they provide? You know, because you're a supporter. And yet you don't seem to acknowledge it.
Nothing's inevitable unless people allow it to become so. And even then things might change if people work hard enough to make them change. The game went 'professional' a century ago - why do some countries' fans refuse to roll over and let their clubs be bankrupted by terrible owners, used as a vehicle to earn profits for investors or as an advertisement hoarding for various unscrupulous dictators? What difference is there between the English fan and the German fan that accounts for the German fan ensuring that the 50+1 rule is rigidly applied throughout the upper tiers of the German league system, while the English fan only watches as his or her club is passed around to various loaded owners without having a say in it?
I don't particularly see German players or the staff at German clubs being hard done by due to their clubs being owned by 'emotive amateurs'. They have staff too, and professional ways of running their clubs - their end goals are to be successful as well. Indeed, they're arguably a lot more successful at the moment than English clubs are, at least in Europe. The only difference is, when they decide policy, because of their ownership being held by the members (i.e, the fans), they have to consider things like this:
"We could charge more than €130 (£104). Let's say we charged €380 (£300). We'd get €2.5m (£2m) more in income, but what's €2.5m to us?"
"In a transfer discussion you argue about the sum for five minutes. But the difference between €130 and €380 is huge for the fans."
"We do not think fans are like cows, who you milk. Football has got to be for everybody."
That's the biggest difference between us and England." - Uli Hoeness, president of Bayern Munich
That's Bayern 'wayyy-more-successful-than-'professionally'-run-Spurs' Munich.
Ah, but they don't call spectators at the theatre 'supporters'. Nor do spectators stay if the show's bad - they generally leave, and in worst case scenarios throw rotten vegetables at the performers and demand refunds. They don't loyally stick to certain theater companies or sets of actors, either - if a theatre puts on consistently bad shows, it goes bust, and no one continues to show up to watch the sh*t it puts out; they just go to a better one.
What accounts for the difference between theatres and football clubs if all people do is spectate as eleven men kick a ball around and eleven other men try to get it back so they can do the same thing? I put it to you that the reason football is the way it is is not because of the players kicking the ball around, but because of the shirts they wear - shirts that people dedicate their lives to. The players in them come and go.
A customer buying a product provided by Tottenham Hotspur plc.? Well, why stick around when other companies in the same 'football' market are offering far superior spectacles/viewing pleasure (measured in terms of world-class footballers and trophies, they range from Madrid to Bayern and Barcelona abroad, and City, Chelsea and so on at home) for far cheaper prices than Spurs, who charge the second-highest ticket prices in the league on average?
After all, the players make the game, and the best players are all at Madrid or Barca - the best players domestically are scattered around Chelsea, City, Arsenal et al. Why sit and be a spectator for Spurs? Brand loyalty, like with Apple fans? That only goes so far when there are far superior products - much like even those who were loyal to MySpace now use Facebook. So why stay here?
Because you care more about the club than the base, flimsy, colourless 'spectacle' it provides of eleven men kicking a ball around. It isn't about them, it's about the shirt they wear, and the shirt you love, whether you'd like to admit it or not - a love you share with every other Spurs supporter, and a love that is often irrational to the point of making an absolute mockery of any claims to a mere customer-service provider relationship.
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