Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - Licence To Stand

[scaramanga]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

So purchasing land under the clubs name and other shareholders then profiteering from that isn't wrong or just a bit taking the **** out of the club, other shareholders and us the fans .

I say B0llocks

No, it's not at all.

The other shareholders should have taken a majority holding if they didn't want to be squeezed. They're taking nothing from the fans as we didn't have anything to start with.

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

LOL.. The reason its all gone to this company is one reason only.. to avoid paying TAX. Tax avoidance in the Bahamas.

 

[milo]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

LOL.. The reason its all gone to this company is one reason only.. to avoid paying TAX. Tax avoidance in the Bahamas.

My recollection is that the club's argument was that if the club was heavily indebted then it would make the cost of securing further credit more expensive.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

i.e net spend is zero on transfers. Levy lied when he said it wouldn't affect transfer spend. The Bale money helped cover his masterplan to get the stadium done without spending his money yet giving themselves (ENIC) a billion pound asset.

No difference to Glazers.

Fcuk all modern owners. Give clubs back to the fans.

Eh?

What money have ENIC taken out of Spurs?

You are aware that they recently invested £40m into the club in order to clear the remaining debt from the stadium related costs thus far?

Nothing like the Glazers.

Not even in the same ballpark.

Nor on the same planet, for that matter.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

But most importantly you didn't respond to the point that the reason net spend is zero is because the money is being used elsewhere and therefore Levy lied.. or are you saying that it has not affected our transfer policy.

Stadium related costs thus far have amounted to in excess of £100m. That includes property purchases, architect fees, planning costs, construction of the Sainsbury's / UTC building etc.

The Sainsbury's / UTC and a number of non core properties to the west of the High Road were sold, at arm's length, to TH Property - an ENIC subsidiary. Added to the £40m loan from ENIC (which will, in time, be converted into equity), these property sales effectively wiped out our debt. Pretty impressive considering that, in addition to spending in excess of £100m on the stadium project, we've also built a £45m training centre in the last few years.

P.S. Not to forget that there was a share placement five years ago in which ENIC invested a further £15m into the club in order to pay for some of the costs of progressing stadium plans, property purchases etc.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

So purchasing land under the clubs name and other shareholders then profiteering from that isn't wrong or just a bit taking the **** out of the club, other shareholders and us the fans .

I say B0llocks

Hang on a bit. There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding here (not just you, to be fair!).

ENIC's subsidiary company (TH Property) has bought a bunch of properties off THFC at independently valued market rates. ENIC also lent a further £40m to the club which will eventually be converted into equity. They did all of this because THFC needed to clear its existing debts in order to be able to go to the banks to seek a far greater level of debt (for the stadium).

Neither the club nor its minor shareholders will have lost out. If ENIC had wanted to shaft the club and shareholders, they could just have bought the land for the Sainsbury's / UTC building prior to planning permission having been granted. Would have been far cheaper for them and far less profitable for the club.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

We're not having to generate money from transfers to pay for the stadium, like Arsenal had to.

The benefit of cyphering off money to TH Properties Ltd over the past 7-8 years is that we aren't going to get lumbered with 10 years of crippling loan repayments afterwards.

And why do you say back to fans? Have fans ever owned a club in this country? If you fancy it, why not start a Pledge site to try and raise the £1b?

Not sure where you're getting this idea, GB.

TH Property Ltd is an ENIC subsidiary, not a Spurs subsidiary. Spurs sold properties to TH Property. Consequently, those properties are no longer Spurs' to exploit in any way.

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

I sometimes think jimmy that if the club told you a straight line was a circle that you would believe it was a circle.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

I sometimes think jimmy that if the club told you a straight line was a circle that you would believe it was a circle.

You think it naivety on my part?

No, mate. It's just that I've read and understood the statement accompanying Spurs' latest financial results. I wish everyone would make the effort.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

i don't fancy fan ownership at all

it's said that it works in Germany but I disagee, it works for Bayern Munich (who's advantage comes from their incredible sponsorship deals), yes Dortmund have come back strongly since fan ownership but lets see if they are still getting to CL finals 20 years from now

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

i don't fancy fan ownership at all

it's said that it works in Germany but I disagee, it works for Bayern Munich (who's advantage comes from their incredible sponsorship deals), yes Dortmund have come back strongly since fan ownership but lets see if they are still getting to CL finals 20 years from now

Fan ownership "working" = regularly winning trophies?

If that's the standard then surely what's working is becoming a billionaire's plaything?

I think there's a lot more to fan ownership than just trophies and on the pitch success. I genuinely don't know, but how many Leeds or Portsmouth stories have there been in Germany? How many Glazer money sucking ventures have there been in Germany? I imagine both of those are a lot less common with fan ownership, but I can't point to any particular article or information to back that up. Could be just that I notice stuff like that more in England since I follow the PL a lot closer.

 

[milo]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

Fan ownership "working" = regularly winning trophies?

If that's the standard then surely what's working is becoming a billionaire's plaything?

I think there's a lot more to fan ownership than just trophies and on the pitch success. I genuinely don't know, but how many Leeds or Portsmouth stories have there been in Germany? How many Glazer money sucking ventures have there been in Germany? I imagine both of those are a lot less common with fan ownership, but I can't point to any particular article or information to back that up. Could be just that I notice stuff like that more in England since I follow the PL a lot closer.

I don't know how it could work but I would be interested in ideas of how fans could have an input into their clubs.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

I don't know how it could work but I would be interested in ideas of how fans could have an input into their clubs.

I have no idea, unless we're talking (part) fan ownership or just by getting lucky with an owner that actually cares about the fans.

Fan ownership was discussed on football weekly (I think) at one point, with their German panelist Raphael Honigstein essentially saying that for the big clubs in England it's unobtainable because of how far the money part of English football has spiraled. Looking at Spurs as an example it would probably mean raising a billion or more to buy the club outright. Even if you got a hundred thousand fans to join in to buy the club it would mean raising ten thousand pounds from each of them on average. Even half that for a part ownership thingy seems completely unrealistic, even a tenth of it seems downright impossible just from a financial point of view - never mind logistically. Unless we get relegated by a few divisions without losing a lot of our fanbase and without accruing massive debt it's just not going to happen.

I really think having an owner that, at least for now, has his interests aligned with most of what most of the fans want is about as good as it's going to get. Just ask United, Liverpool or even Arsenal fans - ignoring the truly shocking stories of clubs that are sometimes described as just extreme cases when poor owners are being discussed.

Rarely does the complete inability of fans to influence the club get more apparent when a change of ownership is on the cards. The previous United owners had seen the club get astonishingly successful on the pitch and off the pitch. They were reportedly United fans themselves, with a long term ownership interest in the club. Didn't matter one iota when the Glazers made them a better offer than any other potential owner. Look at the string of owners at Portsmouth and Leeds. The fans have absolutely no say on something like this. No amount of protesting or booing will help. Even the sometimes threatened, never actually realized walk-out/stop going to games would not change an owner's decision of who to sell to (although I suppose it could, possibly, arguably, stop someone from buying a club - although that also looks unlikely).

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

yeah braineclipse, I think working = winning

 

[Shelfie]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

For me, ENIC have failed so far on the stadium issue. 14 years and still playing to the same capacity of 36,000 is not good enough, by a long way.

I doubt that fan ownership is the way forward, for me it's a very rich company/individual prepared to spend serious money on our club, unlike ENIC.

 

[milo]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

I have no idea, unless we're talking (part) fan ownership or just by getting lucky with an owner that actually cares about the fans.

Fan ownership was discussed on football weekly (I think) at one point, with their German panelist Raphael Honigstein essentially saying that for the big clubs in England it's unobtainable because of how far the money part of English football has spiraled. Looking at Spurs as an example it would probably mean raising a billion or more to buy the club outright. Even if you got a hundred thousand fans to join in to buy the club it would mean raising ten thousand pounds from each of them on average. Even half that for a part ownership thingy seems completely unrealistic, even a tenth of it seems downright impossible just from a financial point of view - never mind logistically. Unless we get relegated by a few divisions without losing a lot of our fanbase and without accruing massive debt it's just not going to happen.

I really think having an owner that, at least for now, has his interests aligned with most of what most of the fans want is about as good as it's going to get. Just ask United, Liverpool or even Arsenal fans - ignoring the truly shocking stories of clubs that are sometimes described as just extreme cases when poor owners are being discussed.

Rarely does the complete inability of fans to influence the club get more apparent when a change of ownership is on the cards. The previous United owners had seen the club get astonishingly successful on the pitch and off the pitch. They were reportedly United fans themselves, with a long term ownership interest in the club. Didn't matter one iota when the Glazers made them a better offer than any other potential owner. Look at the string of owners at Portsmouth and Leeds. The fans have absolutely no say on something like this. No amount of protesting or booing will help. Even the sometimes threatened, never actually realized walk-out/stop going to games would not change an owner's decision of who to sell to (although I suppose it could, possibly, arguably, stop someone from buying a club - although that also looks unlikely).

I agree that it is probably too late to do anything in English football. I think that the best we could hope for is a more rigorous use of the fit and proper ownership test and the introduction of FFP to the Premier League. I say this to improve English football generally, not because I am unhappy with our current owners.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

yeah braineclipse, I think working = winning

But in Germany there are many teams with that model. Surely all of them, or even most of them, couldn't be winning regardless of ownership structure?

England has a completely different ownership structure as the norm, and the only regular trophy winners in the last 20 years have been United, (Arsenal at one point) and the billionaire clubs...

 

[metalgear]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

How did the German league move to shared ownership with the fans ?

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

But in Germany there are many teams with that model. Surely all of them, or even most of them, couldn't be winning regardless of ownership structure?

England has a completely different ownership structure as the norm, and the only regular trophy winners in the last 20 years have been United, (Arsenal at one point) and the billionaire clubs...

i think Munich are an anomaly, I don't think there success is due to fan ownership, I dont see how it would help us

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Northumberland Development Project - Archway Have Appealed

their goddamit ios