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Toby Alderweireld

Jurgen the German said:
Posted in the Juve OMT that tonight highlights why we can’t afford to lose one of the few older, more experienced, trophy winning stars from the side. If he wants £150k a week then give it him as far as I’m concerned. All very well talking about systems and projects but you don’t win trophies without top players.
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Jermaine Jeans (who is a much better pundit than a footballer imo) spoke very well about this on 5Live last night.

His point was that we need to hold on to the squad who were knocked out by Juve on Wednesday night. If we don’t then we don’t really learn any lessons, from the defeat as some of the players who hopefully have learned the lessons will have gone.

He suggested that Juve have a group who have been together for a long time - so, when they were behind at the end of the first half, as a group they were able to say “We’ve been here before and got out of it”. He said it wasn’t just about the players on the pitch, it was about that experience being prevalent throughout the squad.
 
DeanoAustin said:
That point has some validity but I still don’t buy it. Poch hasn’t unearthed the keys to guaranteed success here. The system helps but it still needs good players in it.

We swapped out Walker for Aurier. We are weaker in that position. It’s cost is a couple of times this season already. Take Toby out for Sanchez and we’re weaker again although Sanchez could be just as good in a few years. In a couple of years, Jan will be past his best. If in that time we’re selling Dele and, say Kane, you have a gradual erosion over time that will catch up on us because the players we bring in won’t be as good unless we’re exceptionally lucky. The system won’t mask that.

When United lost Ronaldo, they didn’t sell Rooney, Carrick or Vidic the next season. When Barca lost Xavi, they didn’t sell Messi, Iniesta or Pique the next season.

If we continually sell our best players, we’ll weaken ourselves and Pochs management and system will only do so much to make up for it.
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The system does need good players and I am sure we can cope with losing one good player a year and replacing with a promising youngster or a bargain buy a-la Moura or Aurier (although I know the jury is still out on Surge and Moura, although promising, is not sure hit either). But it's not like we're Southampton and we will be losing our entire starting 11 over the course of a couple of transfer windows!

We lost Modric and then Bale the following year. But do you think if they were playing in today's team they would want to get out of Dodge as fast as they did back then? Would Modric even want to go to the basket case that is currently Chelsea? So I do not think we will be losing players by the truckload to the point that it will impact the team as much as you think.
 
DeanoAustin said:
We absolutely have. And we’ll get away with it against most PL teams because Trippier and Sanchez are very good players more than capable of standing out against the Evertons and Huddersfields of this world. They may even be good enough against United and Arsenal particularly at home. But they’ll cost you when the pressure is really on.

Although I do think Sanchez will, in a few years, be a top player.
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Missing Toby didn't seem to affect us much when we beat Woolwich, Yanited, and Real Madrid. And when we lost to Woolwich at the Emirates Sanchez was the standout player, if I remember correctly. And with Toby in the lineup we lost to Chelsea and managed to let in a late goal against Burnley. I'm not saying he isn't a key player, but I think you are underestimating Sanchez's contribution and Poch's system.
 
in my head the key conversations went like this.

DL: Toby you've been the best centre back in the league, your release clause is well below your value to the club. Given that, would you sign a new deal now given you parity with our top earners for 100k a week?
TA: thing is this is my last contract and several clubs will offer me 250, especially if I go to them at the release clause price.
DL: if you wait until the new stadium the ceiling will rise and we might be able to get to 150, otherwise we will have to sell you for the benefit of the club.
TA: ok let's assess where we are as a team and when you can actually make me that offer.

TA: gaffer I'm feeling good, really would like to be back for the Juve game.
MP: that's great Toby but you know we need you to be 100%. Rochdale proved you need some more games to ease you back in without having any more set backs.
TA: but the fans think I'm doing a Walker, I just want to play and do my best for the club!
MP: stop reading glory glory, you'll be back in my plans soon and there will be other big games to come, including the FA Cup final!

If we offer him parity with a new higher ceiling next season when The current top earners also get an uplift, there's nothing else we can do as a club, the release clause must have been key to him signing in the first place but it would be difficult to begrudge him potentially doubling his final contract wages. Especially if he has any personal concerns about his recovery from this injury.
 
MKSpur said:
in my head the key conversations went like this.

DL: Toby you've been the best centre back in the league, your release clause is well below your value to the club. Given that, would you sign a new deal now given you parity with our top earners for 100k a week?
TA: thing is this is my last contract and several clubs will offer me 250, especially if I go to them at the release clause price.
DL: if you wait until the new stadium the ceiling will rise and we might be able to get to 150, otherwise we will have to sell you for the benefit of the club.
TA: ok let's assess where we are as a team and when you can actually make me that offer.

TA: gaffer I'm feeling good, really would like to be back for the Juve game.
MP: that's great Toby but you know we need you to be 400%. Rochdale proved you need some more games to ease you back in without having any more set backs.
TA: but the fans think I'm doing a Walker, I just want to play and do my best for the club!
MP: stop reading glory glory, you'll be back in my plans soon and there will be other big games to come, including the FA Cup final!

If we offer him parity with a new higher ceiling next season when The current top earners also get an uplift, there's nothing else we can do as a club, the release clause must have been key to him signing in the first place but it would be difficult to begrudge him potentially doubling his final contract wages. Especially if he has any personal concerns about his recovery from this injury.
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Remember the release clause was generous to us back when he signed the original contract.

It's only the unforeseen bonkersness of the transfer market that makes that appear a skinny price now.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Remember the release clause was generous to us back when he signed the original contract.

It's only the unforeseen bonkersness of the transfer market that makes that appear a skinny price now.
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Agreed re the inflation of the price, but does seem unlike us to agree one given what we usually extract relevant to market when we have sold players like Carrick, Berbatov,Modric and Bale. Plus it did come out quite quickly so pretty sure the same would happen if anyone else had one!
 
MKSpur said:
Agreed re the inflation of the price, but does seem unlike us to agree one given what we usually extract relevant to market when we have sold players like Carrick, Berbatov,Modric and Bale. Plus it did come out quite quickly so pretty sure the same would happen if anyone else had one!
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At the time, it was to protect us against another Sol situation, as even at the end of his last year we could activate the extra year extension with the clause for £25m. So if he was to go we'd get £25m which, as I say, back in 2014/15 (when he signed up)would sound decent for a 29yr old CB in the last year of his contract.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
At the time, it was to protect us against another Sol situation, as even at the end of his last year we could activate the extra year extension with the clause for £25m. So if he was to go we'd get £25m which, as I say, back in 2014/15 (when he signed up)would sound decent for a 29yr old CB in the last year of his contract.
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We don't let anyone run their contract down though, so why has Toby and his release clause been the exception? If we insisted on it ourselves then I hope it was a one off, as since it was revealed it's been hanging like the sword of Damocles and handed most of the negotiating power to the player and the interested clubs.
 
MKSpur said:
We don't let anyone run their contract down though, so why has Toby and his release clause been the exception? If we insisted on it ourselves then I hope it was a one off, as since it was revealed it's been hanging like the sword of Damocles and handed most of the negotiating power to the player and the interested clubs.
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He had a release clause in his deal with the loan to Southampton

We had to offer more than they agreed which we did

I’d be stunned if we had wanted the clause but they do happen (although I was lead to believ they couldn’t be enforced in the uk)
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Is this guy still injured? I thought he had recovered given that he played in the cup.
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He did but then he picked up another small injury and then I think returned to full training again at the end of this week. I think there's a reasonable chance that he might play against Swansea
 
I’m sure Poch did say after that game he wasn’t ready to play more currently.

I’d somehow convinced myself a few weeks ago we was fine with Sanchez,Verts plus Foyth and Dier as backup but I’m kidding myself. Sanchez looks far shakier than Toby ever does, and I’m not doubting that he won’t develop into a great Cb but I do think he’s some way off Toby’s level right now....
 
WTF? Another few weeks? He might not play for us again this season then if that’s the case. I thought it was a minor recurrence and he’d be back on it quickly?
 
MKSpur said:
in my head the key conversations went like this.

DL: Toby you've been the best centre back in the league, your release clause is well below your value to the club. Given that, would you sign a new deal now given you parity with our top earners for 100k a week?
TA: thing is this is my last contract and several clubs will offer me 250, especially if I go to them at the release clause price.
DL: if you wait until the new stadium the ceiling will rise and we might be able to get to 150, otherwise we will have to sell you for the benefit of the club.
TA: ok let's assess where we are as a team and when you can actually make me that offer.

TA: gaffer I'm feeling good, really would like to be back for the Juve game.
MP: that's great Toby but you know we need you to be 400%. Rochdale proved you need some more games to ease you back in without having any more set backs.
TA: but the fans think I'm doing a Walker, I just want to play and do my best for the club!
MP: stop reading glory glory, you'll be back in my plans soon and there will be other big games to come, including the FA Cup final!

If we offer him parity with a new higher ceiling next season when The current top earners also get an uplift, there's nothing else we can do as a club, the release clause must have been key to him signing in the first place but it would be difficult to begrudge him potentially doubling his final contract wages. Especially if he has any personal concerns about his recovery from this injury.
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'Doing a Walker' isn't exactly being fair to Kyle. He wasn't making himself unavailable for half the games last season - Poch was the one who decided to immediately reduce our reliance on him post-transfer request by playing Tripper instead. Walker would have liked to play - he said as much as well, I think.

If the same thing is happening with Toby, it likely isn't Toby's choice - it will be Poch deciding to immediately cut him out in favour of Sanchez. Only issue with that is that, as wonderfully good as Davinson's been for a 21-year-old kid new to the team and the Premier League...he's no Toby. Not by a long shot. And we are definitely shakier in Toby's absence.
 
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