Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Something that has quite surprised me: I have just finished looking back at the stats of our PL games this season, trying to identify where we have been "lucky" or "unlucky".*

Now obviously, stats don't tell you much about a game but from the shots both teams had, each team would have expected to score 1.7- - i.e. the draw was the "fair" result.

The other interesting thing is that the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game is pretty much the point at which we stopped being lucky. Under AVB we picked up 1 "luck point" overall (Arsenal and Hull expected draws, should have beaten Saudi Sportswashing Machine, should have lost to Fulham). In Tim's first 10 games we gained an extra 11 luck points (Southampton, Palace, Man U, Everton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine are expected draws; WBA @ WHL expected loss) and since then we are -2 for luck (Norwich and Arsenal were expected draws)

So in fact, you could say that Tim's luck has run out.



* I've done this by looking at the shots on target for and against and their location - 6 yd box, the so-called prime shot zone, and other. The reason for this is that a shot on target in the 6yd zone has about a 70% chance of scoring (apparently), the prime zone about 40% and other zones 5-10%. Something like that anyway.

Thanks for that.

Unfortunately you're banging the same drum I've long tired of banging. Unfortunately many fans still think that matches are entirely controllable, random events don't happen and (my favourite) it will even itself out in a season.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

And Bayern lost to Dortmund last month. Individual results have no reflection on the fact that we've picked up 10 points from a run that any neutral would expect us to get 12 from.

Ha! Any neutral...
In this context i think the concept of neutral is so far removed from you that you simply cannot comment upon it.

So much poison.

 

[Seedy Ron]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think it's part and parcel of the internet, forums, social media and ways we can get our opinions out there...

I think the TS "backers" (for want of a better phrase) are being completely naïve...

Won't quote both in full for space reasons, but these 2 sum it up perfectly, why I didn't want him in charge in the first place and why I've not warmed to him since.

 

[Lily White]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The abuse of Sherwood started BEFORE he even took charge of a single game! Please let's not pretend that all this stemmed from what's happened since, because that's easily falsifiable by simply clicking to the front of this thread.

Our new manager made a bit of a t1t of himself throwing around his gilet and having a strop at Anfield. Rookie mistakes that he has since improved 100 fold. The abuse he has received both pre-dates those incidents, and in any event is wildly disproportionate for them.

As for him not being popular:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


Justin Bieber sells a zillion records and he's still fukking sh1te. Just because there's an echo-chamber in here on this subject, lead by a hardcore and gone along with by many others, doesn't mean I have to agree with it, nor that it's correct.

I know this post sounds obnoxious, and it's not a personal attack on you Diego, but the sh1t that has been spouted on here the last couple of months has been off the charts and it's seriously time somebody called you all out on it. It's been a shameful effort.

Nobody associated with Spurs with the exception of Campbell has EVER got this level of disrespect in my memory: not ghouls like Irving Scholar, not carpet baggers like Sugar, AVB or Man in a Raincoat, not shirt-throwing clowns like Ghaly, not sell-outs like Berbatov, not mercenaries like VdV and Rebrov, not thoroughly unpleasant characters like Ruddock.

George fukking Goonerface Graham got less abuse than this. It's pretty much unprecedented and for the life of me I don't understand it.

=D> I know and understand that humans will dislike some other humans whether it is irrational or for good reason but Tim is a ****ing football manager that I doubt any of you have met. He manages a football team and hasn't ran off with your wives/sisters/girlfriends and stewed your babies. I dislike certain people in the public eye but I don't sit at my laptop boiling with rage, foaming at the mouth declaring my hatred for that person.
A lot of you seem to take it all personally as though somehow having TS manage the club you support is a slight on your character. The desire to have a suited educated tactician in charge of the team is a reflection of this.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

=D> I know and understand that humans will dislike some other humans whether it is irrational or for good reason but Tim is a ****ing football manager that I doubt any of you have met. He manages a football team and hasn't ran off with your wives/sisters/girlfriends and stewed your babies. I dislike certain people in the public eye but I don't sit at my laptop boiling with rage, foaming at the mouth declaring my hatred for that person.
A lot of you seem to take it all personally as though somehow having TS manage the club you support is a slight on your character. The desire to have a suited educated tactician in charge of the team is a reflection of this.

It's not a slight on my character - it's far worse than that. It's a slight on the character of my team.

 

[Hashegotthesackyet?]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

=D> I know and understand that humans will dislike some other humans whether it is irrational or for good reason but Tim is a ****ing football manager that I doubt any of you have met. He manages a football team and hasn't ran off with your wives/sisters/girlfriends and stewed your babies. I dislike certain people in the public eye but I don't sit at my laptop boiling with rage, foaming at the mouth declaring my hatred for that person.
A lot of you seem to take it all personally as though somehow having TS manage the club you support is a slight on your character. The desire to have a suited educated tactician in charge of the team is a reflection of this.

I've met him.

 

[DTA]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I've met him.

What was he like?

Those that I know that have met him ( in passing ) say he is alright.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Something that has quite surprised me: I have just finished looking back at the stats of our PL games this season, trying to identify where we have been "lucky" or "unlucky".*

Now obviously, stats don't tell you much about a game but from the shots both teams had, each team would have expected to score 1.7- - i.e. the draw was the "fair" result.

The other interesting thing is that the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game is pretty much the point at which we stopped being lucky. Under AVB we picked up 1 "luck point" overall (Arsenal and Hull expected draws, should have beaten Saudi Sportswashing Machine, should have lost to Fulham). In Tim's first 10 games we gained an extra 11 luck points (Southampton, Palace, Man U, Everton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine are expected draws; WBA @ WHL expected loss) and since then we are -2 for luck (Norwich and Arsenal were expected draws)

So in fact, you could say that Tim's luck has run out.



* I've done this by looking at the shots on target for and against and their location - 6 yd box, the so-called prime shot zone, and other. The reason for this is that a shot on target in the 6yd zone has about a 70% chance of scoring (apparently), the prime zone about 40% and other zones 5-10%. Something like that anyway.

This is is rather desperate tbf.

Define 'luck'? what about how lucky we were to get soft pens vs Hull and Swansea that magically turns 2 points to 4?

Lucky against Southampton, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and united under Sherwood? maybe united being that Young should have got a pen but performance wise what are you talking about?

Norwich expected draw? despite missing 3 clear cut one on ones? and them creating diddly squat in terms of clear chances? jeez

 

[Nezza]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

This is is rather desperate tbf.

Define 'luck'? what about how lucky we were to get soft pens vs Hull and Swansea that magically turns 2 points to 4?

Lucky against Southampton, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and united under Sherwood? maybe united being that Young should have got a pen but performance wise what are you talking about?

Norwich expected draw? despite missing 3 clear cut one on ones? and them creating diddly squat in terms of clear chances? jeez

In what way is this desperate?

I spelt out exactly what "luck" means in this context: given the number shots on target for each match, how many goals could each team have expected to score vs the actual result.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think the TS "backers" (for want of a better phrase) are being completely naïve.

The abuse Sherwood gets on this board is in no way unprecedented, how long have you been on this board, a week? Redknapp was still called a saggy faced ****, twitchy, etc. even when the guy had us in CL, **** me, Jenas got more abuse than Sherwood, look at the abuse Lennon gets (all of a sudden after 7 years he's a championship footballer), not to mention Dawson.. It's the nature of the modern world, keyboard warriors.

Re the why? it's really simple, the vast majority of people understand Tottenham Hotspur is a club with a turnover somewhere in the region of 120M, is in the top 15 clubs in Europe, fiscally well run and with an aggressive strategy to trying to move into PL top 4 permanently.

If I built a job description and asked any job recruiter to come up with a list of potential candidates that warrant consideration, Tim Sherwood would not be anywhere on the list (forget the mid season excuse story), he would not qualify for the interview, far less the job.

Occasionally people get promotions due to circumstance and you take the opportunity (no fault of TS that he got the job), at that stage you accept you are in a learning curve, you look for help/guidance from others and you try not to make yourself come across as the ****ing new guy who thinks he knows everything.

People have got massively frustrated because the guy "doesn't get it" he alienates people with **** like sitting in the stands, calling out very good players publicly, making statements about the clubs actions being disappointing, in general making it very clear there is Tottenham Hotspur and there is Tim Sherwood. His constant need to say something in the media is ill advised.

His results have been good, but not amazing, and most worryingly, the vast majority of the time, we look like **** while getting those results (nobody can really say we really looked good against Stoke or Fulham or most others).

If you think TS is the ma for the job, great, happy for you, but nothing in the guys CV suggests he could/should be the next great Tottenham manager, and that is exactly why the club is looking elsewhere and most fans are simply counting down the minutes.

I'm not sure whether I would be classified as a TS "backer" or not. I would like to see him replaced with a more (/the right) experienced manager at the end of the season but I am not aware of anyone on the board who does not think this. I also think that the criticism of Sherwood has been out of proportion and many people have been looking for any opportunity to have a go at him.

I don't agree that the abuse Sherwood gets is less than that Jenas got or Lennon and Dawson get. Redknapp certainly got plenty of abuse and people belittling his team's achievements but nowhere near like it is right now.

I agree with Chancer, there is a complete lack of perspective and objectivity right now.

 

[DHSF]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

And Bayern lost to Dortmund last month. Individual results have no reflection on the fact that we've picked up 10 points from a run that any neutral would expect us to get 12 from.

Expectations dont become reality... just because you expect a result doesnt necessarily mean that a result will be achieved. Its naive to think and contemplate otherwise.

 

[DHSF]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think the TS "backers" (for want of a better phrase) are being completely naïve.

The abuse Sherwood gets on this board is in no way unprecedented, how long have you been on this board, a week? Redknapp was still called a saggy faced ****, twitchy, etc. even when the guy had us in CL, **** me, Jenas got more abuse than Sherwood, look at the abuse Lennon gets (all of a sudden after 7 years he's a championship footballer), not to mention Dawson.. It's the nature of the modern world, keyboard warriors.

Re the why? it's really simple, the vast majority of people understand Tottenham Hotspur is a club with a turnover somewhere in the region of 120M, is in the top 15 clubs in Europe, fiscally well run and with an aggressive strategy to trying to move into PL top 4 permanently.

If I built a job description and asked any job recruiter to come up with a list of potential candidates that warrant consideration, Tim Sherwood would not be anywhere on the list (forget the mid season excuse story), he would not qualify for the interview, far less the job.

Occasionally people get promotions due to circumstance and you take the opportunity (no fault of TS that he got the job), at that stage you accept you are in a learning curve, you look for help/guidance from others and you try not to make yourself come across as the ****ing new guy who thinks he knows everything.

People have got massively frustrated because the guy "doesn't get it" he alienates people with **** like sitting in the stands, calling out very good players publicly, making statements about the clubs actions being disappointing, in general making it very clear there is Tottenham Hotspur and there is Tim Sherwood. His constant need to say something in the media is ill advised.

His results have been good, but not amazing, and most worryingly, the vast majority of the time, we look like **** while getting those results (nobody can really say we really looked good against Stoke or Fulham or most others).

If you think TS is the ma for the job, great, happy for you, but nothing in the guys CV suggests he could/should be the next great Tottenham manager, and that is exactly why the club is looking elsewhere and most fans are simply counting down the minutes.

I'd call it giving a guy an opportunity based on two things a) results and b) not many others who are available that would be a much better appointment BASED ON OUR VIEWS.

I didnt realise a CV was the be all and end all. Was FDB a Manager before Ajax? I know he was an AM but not a Manager. Moyes had a decent CV yet he failed at Manure. CVs dont necessarily mean someone will be successful the same way it doesnt mean he will fail.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'd call it giving a guy an opportunity based on two things a) results and b) not many others who are available that would be a much better appointment BASED ON OUR VIEWS.

I didnt realise a CV was the be all and end all. Was FDB a Manager before Ajax? I know he was an AM but not a Manager. Moyes had a decent CV yet he failed at Manure. CVs dont necessarily mean someone will be successful the same way it doesnt mean he will fail.

Anyone can fail at a job, a CV is the hiring organization's way of minimizing that risk early.

I have discussed this before, but again, people seem to ignore

- You don't "give a guy a chance" with something that potentially has an impact in the hundreds of millions of pounds, just not a good fiscal decision.
- The no one else argument is BS as well, to me Levy either really had someone in mind, talked to that person and got some assurances that he would have them in summer, hence TS was always a interim appointment, or both Levy/Baldini have some serious answering to do if they couldn't find someone with a better CV.

- Barca/Ajax/AC Milan are not good examples of how to base your management decisions due to
- The clubs have systems/ethos/etc. in place that have been in place for years that allow them to transition managers in/out a little less painfully
- Economically in their leagues, they are not really trying to compete above their bracket, as they are already in the top bracket.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm not sure whether I would be classified as a TS "backer" or not. I would like to see him replaced with a more (/the right) experienced manager at the end of the season but I am not aware of anyone on the board who does not think this. I also think that the criticism of Sherwood has been out of proportion and many people have been looking for any opportunity to have a go at him.

I don't agree that the abuse Sherwood gets is less than that Jenas got or Lennon and Dawson get. Redknapp certainly got plenty of abuse and people belittling his team's achievements but nowhere near like it is right now.

I agree with Chancer, there is a complete lack of perspective and objectivity right now.

I'm sorry mate, but TS has never gotten anything like the abuse Redknapp got, about his face, his tax stuff, some very nasty and personal **** was said about the guy all the time, for years.

Jenas/Lennon/Dawson get massive amount of stick for guys who were just long time servants of the club who put on the jersey and try their best for us (and maybe people don't think it's good enough, but if you look at those guys threads on this board and their personal twitter feeds that they will see, it's horribly embarrassing)

What is the horrible stick that TS gets? that people think he's unqualified for the job? (true) that they question his tactical ability (almost every manager), that they think he's dim (really, calling somebody dim is massive abuse now?), or reactions to **** that he brought on himself with his daily unadvised press statements? (big part of the **** Harry got as well).

I say again, the lack of perspective is from people who watch TS manage this club and the generally poor quality of football we are playing, and can only come back with

- A handpicked set of stats from a small sample pool
- Some vague notion that he "knows the club"
- Give a guy a chance

As some sort of valid reason the club should risk another season of chaos, player underperformance and fan unhappiness (yes we matter) by doing anything other than replacing the guy on the final day of season.

 

[DTA]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Anyone can fail at a job, a CV is the hiring organization's way of minimizing that risk early.

I have discussed this before, but again, people seem to ignore

- You don't "give a guy a chance" with something that potentially has an impact in the hundreds of millions of pounds, just not a good fiscal decision.
- The no one else argument is BS as well, to me Levy either really had someone in mind, talked to that person and got some assurances that he would have them in summer, hence TS was always a interim appointment, or both Levy/Baldini have some serious answering to do if they couldn't find someone with a better CV.

- Barca/Ajax/AC Milan are not good examples of how to base your management decisions due to
- The clubs have systems/ethos/etc. in place that have been in place for years that allow them to transition managers in/out a little less painfully
- Economically in their leagues, they are not really trying to compete above their bracket, as they are already in the top bracket.

OK yes he maybe shouldn't have been given the gig on his CV (although levy would know much more about his intangibles than any of us). But his results have been very good... Better than Wenger and Martinez for instance and this also has to be tempered with the fact that despite what some continually and fictitiously claim He has not taken over in ideal circumstances.

Therefore surely he should be in consideration for the full time role based on his results for SPURS which none of the of the candidates have one their cv

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

OK yes he maybe shouldn't have been given the gig on his CV (although levy would know much more about his intangibles than any of us). But his results have been very good... Better than Wenger and Martinez for instance and this also has to be tempered with the fact that despite what some continually and fictitiously claim He has not taken over in ideal circumstances.

Therefore surely he should be in consideration for the full time role based on his results for SPURS which none of the of the candidates have one their cv

So I work for an organization that rates your results on

- The what - so your point about results is very valid here
- The how - what was your plan/strategy to create those results - here we would have tactics/formations/player motivation/style of football/etc.
- Proven performance - what is your history of performance
- Conduct/representation - how you represent the club, how do you wear your colors and do them due respect

For me, Sherwood has 1 out of 4, he would have shot at explaining me "the how" (I've never understood his tactics beyond overload the attack), 3rd is not his fault but is a valid consideration because right time, right schedule of games can always be a consideration, the 4th he has been a miserable failure at, and that for me is why he will not be in consideration for the role.

 

[DTA]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So I work for an organization that rates your results on

- The what - so your point about results is very valid here
- The how - what was your plan/strategy to create those results - here we would have tactics/formations/player motivation/style of football/etc.
- Proven performance - what is your history of performance
- Conduct/representation - how you represent the club, how do you wear your colors and do them due respect

For me, Sherwood has 1 out of 4, he would have shot at explaining me "the how" (I've never understood his tactics beyond overload the attack), 3rd is not his fault but is a valid consideration because right time, right schedule of games can always be a consideration, the 4th he has been a miserable failure at, and that for me is why he will not be in consideration for the role.

Liverpool behavior was horrendous I can't defend NoR would I want to.. the rest of it.... Meh... to my mind it has been blown out of proportion although far from exemplary. But I will give you four, and three as well although I think that his results for spurs should count for something as none of the other candidates have that specific experience. Two I have an issue with because just because some of the people on here blindly reiterate the fact that he has no plan does not make it true... In fact the number of goals we have scored the results that have bettered Wenger's and Martinez, the heat maps etc all point to fact that he does have a plan.... Is it perfect f u c k. No but it good enough for results and goals which shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

So for me 1 and 2 he has got.... 3 he has got specific to spurs and 4.... Well yeah I will give you that.

 

[DTA]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Liverpool behavior was horrendous I can't defend NoR would I want to.. the rest of it.... Meh... to my mind it has been blown out of proportion although far from exemplary. But I will give you four, and three as well although I think that his results for spurs should count for something as none of the other candidates have that specific experience. Two I have an issue with because just because some of the people on here blindly reiterate the fact that he has no plan does not make it true... In fact the number of goals we have scored the results that have bettered Wenger's and Martinez, the heat maps etc all point to fact that he does have a plan.... Is it perfect f u c k. No but it good enough for results and goals which shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

So for me 1 and 2 he has got.... 3 he has got specific to spurs and 4.... Well yeah I will give you that.

Actually in fairness 3 he hasn't got... In terms of historical record of achieving results.

 

[Hashegotthesackyet?]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Little will come out mate…the club generally never trash anyone. I can't remember a time when it's happened. And there's not a whole bunch more Sherwood can say…I think…(gulp )…

Steff looking back through posts it appears that you suspect TS leaked the story of him going, when it came to light a few weeks ago. Is this a strong hunch, or do you know this as 100% fact?
Not asking you for details, or questioning your credentials, just curious about the leak.

 

[monkeybarry]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Let's be honest -it's all got a bit silly.

Pretty much sums up modern football and the internet