Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Every single one of those points apply to every manager (I'll be generous and call Timmeh a manager in this instance).

They don't apply any less to Timmeh than they do LVG, FDB, or you and I. So why not apply those risks to the best manager we can even if that manager turns out to be an interim one?

I might be getting this wrong but are you arguing that we should have paid another club to poach their manager, to serve as an interim, until we could get one of our preferred options this summer? :~

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Because thats just swapping another temp for a current one without any guarantees that the new temp would get better results than the current temp - you seem to be missing the point that results wise TS is very good. Its the performances and everything else that you and the majority dont appear to rate - which is fine but doesnt mean we can afford to just go through another period of transition. Next managerial appointment will be crucial and as far as im concerned id a) happily live with the current temp and b) bide my time in finding someone who will be here and build something - FDB is and seems to be that man. LVG I didnt want. FDB could be dare I say it our Diego Simeone.

The team has had some good results since Timmeh became caretaker, that doesn't mean those good results will continue.

In fact, we're still far more likely to get good results next season if managed by someone who does this stuff for a living. So yes, we would be swapping one caretaker for another, but we would be replacing the current one with a better one.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think that you are letting your dislike of the man get in the way of your normal business nouse. We constantly criticise Levy for a lack of long term vision but when he does show signs of having one, putting in place an interim until his first/second choice coach becomes available, people slate him for it and say that he should have jumped into a short term appointment.

I just don't see the sense of the short term appointment at all.

If we got rid of AVB for what are comparatively minor character flaws (now that we know what character flaws really are!) then replacing him with an amateur is a far worse long-term vision.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Scara, that is farcical and you know it.

Do you give the guy money knowing the next coach mightn't want any of the new players? Do you get the coach's whole support staff in? Do you let him get rid of players from our squad he doesn't want?

When this guy signs his contract, do you look him in the eye and lie to him that he's our man, knowing all along that you're ready to ditch him at any moment? And would he even believe you in the first place when you lie? What would this kind of fannying around do for the club's reputation and ability to recruit coaches and players?

In fact, your point proves the opposite to what you think it proves: it proves just how silly it is to settle for something less than a top-tier choice. The "year of improvement" you refer to wouldn't be an improvement at all in the medium term. It would be the illusion of change, because the real change (wink wink) would be coming when the next guy arrives. Change for changes sake. Ridiculous.

I also find it impossible to believe you don't at least understand this point, but for some bizarre reason you keep acting like you don't. You might disagree with the point, but for GHod's sake stop pretending you don't understand it.

How long do we wait? What do we do next summer if none are available again?

How many of the managers that we've appointed under Levy do you think have qualified as "top-tier-choices"?

 

[DHSF]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

This is completely unrealistic and thus irrelevant.

We're not going to get a guarantee from de Boer (or anyone else we'd want) that they'll come a year from now.

I don't see any good reason to think that our available options will be better next season than this season.

There can be plenty - e.g. Ancelotti gets fired which is more conceivable than you can imagine. Managers and coaches get fired all the time. What my point was based on is not getting anyone for the sake of it even if he is 1% better than Tim.

Ive had enough of short termism and want something long term. Chopping and changing does not do it for me.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think that given Timmeh's clear character faults (which were clear before he became caretaker), we were as well off living with AVB's faults and having a professional in charge until replacement time.

The problem is that we have no idea how unworkable it had got behind the scenes or how desperate he was to get out.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

There can be plenty - e.g. Ancelotti gets fired which is more conceivable than you can imagine. Managers and coaches get fired all the time. What my point was based on is not getting anyone for the sake of it even if he is 1% better than Tim.

Ive had enough of short termism and want something long term. Chopping and changing does not do it for me.

My post directly above this one would be good questions for you too.

I think there are managers available to us with a significantly higher chance of success than Sherwood. And that for me is the key, we should go for whoever we think has the highest chance of success with us.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I might be getting this wrong but are you arguing that we should have paid another club to poach their manager, to serve as an interim, until we could get one of our preferred options this summer? :~

No, I'm arguing that we should choose from one of the myriad better managers this summer, even if they're not our first choice.

If LVG or whoever first choice is decides in a year that they'd like to manage us then we ditch who we have and go for them.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The problem is that we have no idea how unworkable it had got behind the scenes or how desperate he was to get out.

I'd be very surprised if it had got 'publicly criticising individual players' bad, or 'publicly criticising the club's transfer policy' bad, or even '**** it, Liverpool are too good so let's not bother' bad.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I just don't see the sense of the short term appointment at all.

If we got rid of AVB for what are comparatively minor character flaws (now that we know what character flaws really are!) then replacing him with an amateur is a far worse long-term vision.

But we do not know how minor the character flaws were or how much they had affected professional relationships. I have been told that the situation at the end was similar to what happened with him at Chelsea (make of that what you will, pinch of salt etc.), do you let that fester? I know that you do not like Sherwood but for all of the criticism of him and things that he has got wrong, results have been largely good.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But we do not know how minor the character flaws were or how much they had affected professional relationships. I have been told that the situation at the end was similar to what happened with him at Chelsea (make of that what you will, pinch of salt etc.), do you let that fester? I know that you do not like Sherwood but for all of the criticism of him and things that he has got wrong, results have been largely good.

Results were largely good under AVB too. Relationships are being damaged now, the manager's become a joke amongst many of his own fans and the sections of the press he doesn't buy Christmas hampers for.

Things probably got pretty bad, but we've made them worse with a (predictably) terrible appointment.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'd be very surprised if it had got 'publicly criticising individual players' bad, or 'publicly criticising the club's transfer policy' bad, or even '**** it, Liverpool are too good so let's not bother' bad.

AVB did distance himself from our summer transfer activity towards the end of his time. If you are talking about the comments about why Sandro was dropped, it is not how I would have phrased it but the comments themselves are pretty anodyne and he was back in the squad for the following game. I think that his comments about Liverpool were ill judged but my major criticism of Sherwood would be his handling of the press but this was a failing of AVB too.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Results were largely good under AVB too. Relationships are being damaged now, the manager's become a joke amongst many of his own fans and the sections of the press he doesn't buy Christmas hampers for.

Things probably got pretty bad, but we've made them worse with a (predictably) terrible appointment.

I think it was the right decision to get rid of AVB when we did.

By the way, if Sherwood is as bad as you think you (and the rest of us) should be delighted with him getting the job as it probably will lead to him leaving the club permanently. Surely having him as our manager for half a season where we almost certainly wouldn't have done any better with AVB is better than keeping Sherwood indefinitely in a technical director role?

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Results were largely good under AVB too. Relationships are being damaged now, the manager's become a joke amongst many of his own fans and the sections of the press he doesn't buy Christmas hampers for.

Things probably got pretty bad, but we've made them worse with a (predictably) terrible appointment.

Like I said, it has been a car crash of a season. There was also hostility amongst sections of the fan base towards AVB and he was in open warfare with sections of the press, largely through his poor handling of several situations.

The fact is that we do not know the full reasons for AVB's departure. I think a safe starting point is that it was unavoidable, considering that none of the parties seemed to put up much of a fight. If we can agree on that, then the only question is, where do we go from there?

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think it was the right decision to get rid of AVB when we did.

By the way, if Sherwood is as bad as you think you (and the rest of us) should be delighted with him getting the job as it probably will lead to him leaving the club permanently. Surely having him as our manager for half a season where we almost certainly wouldn't have done any better with AVB is better than keeping Sherwood indefinitely in a technical director role?

You might be right there. As long as we don't try to convince him to stay on (and he seems to have stopped pitching himself at Baldini's job) then the utilitarian view is that it would have been a good thing overall. That's assuming his antics haven't damaged the club's public image too much.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You might be right there. As long as we don't try to convince him to stay on (and he seems to have stopped pitching himself at Baldini's job) then the utilitarian view is that it would have been a good thing overall. That's assuming his antics haven't damaged the club's public image too much.

It is hard to argue that he has damaged the club's image if the manager of Ajax is making a public pitch to replace him.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Like I said, it has been a car crash of a season. There was also hostility amongst sections of the fan base towards AVB and he was in open warfare with sections of the press, largely through his poor handling of several situations.

The fact is that we do not know the full reasons for AVB's departure. I think a safe starting point is that it was unavoidable, considering that none of the parties seemed to put up much of a fight. If we can agree on that, then the only question is, where do we go from there?

Let's work on that assumption that AVB was gone regardless (although I still maintain that if Timmeh was the only alternative then something could have been worked out).

At that point we have the following options, roughly speaking:

1) Appoint a permanent manager and keep him
2) Appoint a caretaker, in the summer appoint a permanent manager
3) Appoint a caretaker, let him stay on in the summer because he tossed 50 heads in 100 coin tosses
4) Appoint a permanent manager and replace him in the summer if a better option is available

So, our other assumptions are that pay offs are comparatively insignificant in football club terms and that we don't know in December who will be available in the summer (if anyone).

Let's also assume nobody at the club is stupid enough to choose option 3.

So we went for 2. Managers are (almost invariably) better than caretakers so 1 would have been better than 2 comfortably. Especially as 1 can become 4 so easily - that way we don't have to be entirely sure about our choice.

Unless finances are so tight that the cost of paying off a non-top tier manager in the summer would have been prohibitively expensive I can't se why we would choose 2.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It is hard to argue that he has damaged the club's image if the manager of Ajax is making a public pitch to replace him.

You could say that he looks such a fool that other managers are happy to publicly offer themselves for his job. Not often you see managers do that to each other to my memory.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Regarding the scenarios of waiting another year…Baldini is staying. As DOF he knows we need a new left back for one thing…and maybe a new CB…so you know what I do?

I promote Steffen Freund, former German u-17 coach, to interim manager, I see if a Renee Mulensteen or Mike Phelan would be prepared to step in as a coach for the following season and I move on.

It is laughable to me that people assume Sherwood would be our best option. He is obviously not up to all aspects of the job, and has managed to undermine himself to such a degree that going back now would make us a bigger laughing stock than ever.

There are many answers out there if a De Boar or even Martinez (who I believe we are interested in) cannot be with us for a season and we needed a pre-contract agreement.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You could say that he looks such a fool that other managers are happy to publicly offer themselves for his job. Not often you see managers do that to each other to my memory.

It happens all the time and certainly when a high profile club have an interim manager in place. I think that you are a little guilty of projecting your beliefs onto others rather than viewing the situation objectively.