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Tim Krul

Oh GHod, don't tell me you're peddling this rubbish now too? I thought you were one of the sensible ones..

Like I pointed out in another thread, there's no common factor that explains our relatively poor finishing of recent seasons. Under Harry, we created a bunch of chances but were often unable to finish them. Under AVB, we barely create any, but even then we have to face more than our fair share of supposedly 'inspired' goalkeepers (that bloke who played for Hull recently, now Krul). I'm of the view that a lot of Krul's saves were only made because we shot within two inches of the guy. Now who, if not Ferdinand, is responsible for instructing our lads to be a bit more discerning in where they put the ball, or to keep a level head when aiming for goal?

So, unless a palatable alternative explanation is available, for now (until I calm down, which isn't likely any time soon), I am proudly one of the 'insensible' ones.
 
Like I pointed out in another thread, there's no common factor that explains our relatively poor finishing of recent seasons. Under Harry, we created a bunch of chances but were often unable to finish them. Under AVB, we barely create any, but even then we have to face more than our fair share of supposedly 'inspired' goalkeepers (that bloke who played for Hull recently, now Krul). I'm of the view that a lot of Krul's saves were only made because we shot within two inches of the guy. Now who, if not Ferdinand, is responsible for instructing our lads to be a bit more discerning in where they put the ball, or to keep a level head when aiming for goal?

So, unless a palatable alternative explanation is available, for now (until I calm down, which isn't likely any time soon), I am proudly one of the 'insensible' ones.

He's a ****ing development coach.. He's not even involved with the first team any longer. How about blame AVB for not making the team take enough 'shooting practice', if that's how darned ignorant you want to be about things..

Or how about understand that confidence is contagious and at the moment our players are clearly edgy in front of goal, they know we're not scoring enough goals, so it's unfortunately a natural side effect that we are snatching at the chances we get.

Once we start knocking a few in from open play, they will continue to come, of this i have no doubt.. We as fans need to be patient and support the team through a reasonably 'difficult' patch, even though we are sitting seventh, a mere five points from the league leaders.
 
He's a ****ing development coach.. He's not even involved with the first team any longer. How about blame AVB for not making the team take enough 'shooting practice', if that's how darned ignorant you want to be about things..

Or how about understand that confidence is contagious and at the moment our players are clearly edgy in front of goal, they know we're not scoring enough goals, so it's unfortunately a natural side effect that we are snatching at the chances we get.

Once we start knocking a few in from open play, they will continue to come, of this i have no doubt.. We as fans need to be patient and support the team through a reasonably 'difficult' patch, even though we are sitting seventh, a mere five points from the league leaders.

Hmm. Wiki still lists him as a striker coach, as does the Guardian (in one of their late August Bale articles, saw it just this morning but I'll try to find it again). If he's actually already been demoted, then fair enough, I apologize and you're right. But I don't really want to start blaming AVB, if only because once I start doing it for real (as opposed to nitpicking at his somewhat odd substitutions, stubborn adherence to the 4-2-3-1 inverted wingers system and lack of attention to corners) it would snowball into blaming him for everything from our poor finishing to our low chance creation to our inability to alter playing styles even a little bit when we're facing immense adversity and are desperately looking for new ideas.

I give him a pass for now because I promised myself I would: he's young, he's making a few rookie errors but that shouldn't overshadow his potential or the good work he's done so far. But after days like today, it is extremely difficult to keep a level head given that we seem positively delighted to throw away another three home points. The real reasons we needed something yesterday are because firstly, we will have to face City (who are great at home) and United (who are clambering back into form) in our next two games, which could well see us out of the top eight entirely come the end of the month. And secondly, we will have to face Saudi Sportswashing Machine and West Ham away, which will undoubtedly be harder games than the games against them at WHL. Yet we threw away points against them in the supposedly easier home times, which does not bode well for our away trips to these places without a Welsh superman there to bail us out of our own poor play.

This season is vital for us: if we do not get top four here, I fear we will not for a long time to come, and that we will have a multitude of new 'Bale' sagas in the summer as the likes of Sandro, Lloris and Verts try to seek exits from the club, utterly undoing what is currently a promising core of young, ambitious players, and setting us right back at square one. And at the moment, our play is far from meriting a top four spot ,and that need s to change very ,very quickly, team confidence and tactical errors be utterly damned.
 
He's a ****ing development coach.. He's not even involved with the first team any longer. How about blame AVB for not making the team take enough 'shooting practice', if that's how darned ignorant you want to be about things..

Or how about understand that confidence is contagious and at the moment our players are clearly edgy in front of goal, they know we're not scoring enough goals, so it's unfortunately a natural side effect that we are snatching at the chances we get.

Once we start knocking a few in from open play, they will continue to come, of this i have no doubt.. We as fans need to be patient and support the team through a reasonably 'difficult' patch, even though we are sitting seventh, a mere five points from the league leaders.

Don't forget the playing in front of 30,000 moaning, overly-expectant fans factor.
 
Don't forget the playing in front of 30,000 moaning, overly-expectant fans factor.

The opposite, presumably, would be 30,000 cheering, completely oblivious fans who'll sing no matter what. The problem with that is that if Bale's late August antics proved anything again, it's that the players (and managers) don't give a damn about the fans when they seek moves to bigger or more established clubs. Yet they desperately need us to giddy them up to get three points against fecking Saudi Sportswashing Machine or Hull City, and haughtily reprimand us when they don't get that giddying up. See the disconnect?

It's not just Spurs, it's more and more modern clubs these days. Players need the fans to cheer them on, but say 'f*ck the fans' and move on when a bigger club comes calling. So what incentive do the fans have to cheer their names or sing their songs? The team as a whole doing well? Sure, but it's no longer a case of 'sing and they will play well', as evidenced by recent times: plenty of teams (including our own) have performed badly despite having the fans' backing. Fan support doesn't always help a team play better, but the lack of fan support very often makes a team play worse. This creates the possibility of the awful occurring: fans cheering the team right to the end, only to see them narrowly fail, and then watch all the players they cheered on wave goodbye as they gleefully blast off to other clubs: in other words, the bitterest pill to swallow.

Spurs fans have been through this many times: 2006, 2011, 2012. More so than most other clubs, I'd wager. And I really will not blame them for refusing to go through it again, and being eminently wary of burning themselves by throwing themselves in again.
 
The opposite, presumably, would be 30,000 cheering, completely oblivious fans who'll sing no matter what. The problem with that is that if Bale's late August antics proved anything again, it's that the players (and managers) don't give a damn about the fans when they seek moves to bigger or more established clubs. Yet they desperately need us to giddy them up to get three points against fecking Saudi Sportswashing Machine or Hull City, and haughtily reprimand us when they don't get that giddying up. See the disconnect?

I'm not advocating mindless cheering, just not groaning at every player every time they try something and it doesn't come off. No wonder we play it so safe all the time, most things in pretty football are risky and I wouldn't want the "Tottenham faithful" on my back every time I try a flick around the corner that goes out for a goal kick.

It's not just Spurs, it's more and more modern clubs these days. Players need the fans to cheer them on, but say 'f*ck the fans' and move on when a bigger club comes calling. So what incentive do the fans have to cheer their names or sing their songs? The team as a whole doing well? Sure, but it's no longer a case of 'sing and they will play well', as evidenced by recent times: plenty of teams (including our own) have performed badly despite having the fans' backing. Fan support doesn't always help a team play better, but the lack of fan support very often makes a team play worse. This creates the possibility of the awful occurring: fans cheering the team right to the end, only to see them narrowly fail, and then watch all the players they cheered on wave goodbye as they gleefully blast off to other clubs: in other words, the bitterest pill to swallow.

Spurs fans have been through this many times: 2006, 2011, 2012. More so than most other clubs, I'd wager. And I really will not blame them for refusing to go through it again, and being eminently wary of burning themselves by throwing themselves in again.

I don't think there's any need to support any particular players. In fact, Sandro aside I find it very difficult to connect with any of our current squad.

It should be plenty enough to support the team, to applaud attempts at good football (even when they go wrong) and to make the place intimidating for visiting fans/players. We managed it during the Jol days and we were much more **** then that we are now.
 
Perhaps groaning is a bit much, but then again, it depends very heavily on the circumstances. If the team's managed to show the fans that they can pull off flicks around the corner with ease, if they're playing free-flowing football (our trademark, after all) then the fans won't be so concerned to see them try it. But when we're trailing, and given the football we've played this season, it's not unnatural of the fans to expect the team to put more effort into the simple things: getting into advanced positions, making forward runs, playing at a higher tempo, working the ball into the box, etcetera, as opposed to trying flicks around the corner that then go out and give the opposition time to retreat into their ten-man shell again.

Secondly, it's not about supporting particular players, it's about cheering on the team. I agree with you: Beyond Sandro, Townsend (academy man), Dawson (plans to retire here) and Freund, I can't find a genuine emotional connection with anyone at the club, AVB included. But the point behind cheering is this: you show love to the team, the eleven players on the field, you roar them on and you try to help them win. This is something the players themselves want you to do, and often will ask you to do in order to help them win. However, they will often not win even when you cheer them on. And unlike in the old days, when that didn't matter so much given that players would likely stay at one club for years, allowing them to effectively 'make it up' to the supporters by performing better the next time the fixture rolled around, in the modern era, one win often means everything in terms of players staying and the club progressing. And the fans all know this: they know that there is a risk that despite their cheering, the team will fail to meet their objectives. And they know that when the team (who are, after all, eleven individuals) fails to meet its objectives, the players tend to agitate for moves away, despite the support shown to them both as individuals and as a team by the fans. So firstly, there is no connection between the players and the fans, and secondly, cheering the team on and then watching them narrowly (This is important) fail is painful in the extreme given the heights we're aiming for and the danger not hitting those heights poses to us as a club (namely, losing all our best players and regressing). This generates a sense of cautiousness among the fans: they are intensely reluctant to attach themselves to this group of players, this team, lest they be burned when they fail (as is looking somewhat likely at the moment). The team first needs to show the fans it can succeed before the fans respond by urging it to succeed. It's not pretty, but this is unfortunately the face of modern football. And, after being burned so many times, I don't blame any Spurs supporters that wait for the team to show them something special before throwing themselves in completely again, at least while we're still up there challenging.

You know, it was so much simpler in the Jol era. We were just emerging from a long period of being ****e, but after having been ****e for so long, even a little progress was something to be grateful about, and we weren't as on edge then because there wasn't as much at stake: worst comes to worst, we'd slip back into mid-table mediocrity, and considering that we weren't far away from it anyway, that wasn't as threatening a prospect as it appears now. We could sing freely, safe in the knowledge that this team failing wouldn't affect us much, while this team succeeding would give us no little amount of joy. That's why our support was good during the Jol days: because we were ****e, not in spite of it.

Now, we've risen so far that we have a long, long way to fall, which generates nervousness. But even success isn't as satisfying, because it merely staves off the danger of our team being decimated for another year. If we get top four this season, I'll be more relieved that overjoyed, I suspect, something I never thought I'd be saying five or six years ago. Because even one year out of the top four is a cue for the likes of Lloris and Verts to push for moves away, meaning we need to keep it up continuously if we want to get anywhere, meaning one season of top four doesn't have the impact now that it did in 09/10 in terms of instilling belief in the fans. So that generates an impatience and nervousness in and of itself.

Sigh. Modern football really is eating itself. Hopefully we'll win a trophy this season: that would send me (and, I suspect, a lot of us) into dreamland, because that is something permanent: players may come and go, but that will be etched into our history forever, and so its significance will remain undimmed. For now (until that new stadium comes up, anyway), in terms of geeing up the fans, that's probably the best we can hope for.
 
DS - I have to agree with a lot of that and often feel similarly myself.

My issue with all that is that we ask the players to show the "Audere est Facere" spirit, to take those chances, to push the limits and to have a swashbuckling nature yet we, as fans, are cautious, nervous and at times a little timid. Isn't it us that haven't quite made the big time yet? Is it more that as fans, we're not ready for the fear that comes with losing ground to Utd and Chelsea?

Utd are regularly criticised for having terrible tourist fans, yet yesterday (and I know it's easier to get up for a big game) they were a wall of noise - their players didn't tire or feel any fear, they just played.
 
If I remember correctly, United's fans utterly lambasted both Fergie and their own side repeatedly during his first years there. 'Ta Ra Fergie' happened back then, and it took an FA Cup win and a league title after that to truly assuage the doubts and get Old Trafford roaring. Similarly, it took Abramovich's endless money to turn Chelsea's support from a bit of a joke into what it is today, and even today Chelsea don't exactly sell out Stamford Bridge despite all that. Towards the tail end of Houllier's reign, I remember Anfield being a moody, disjointed place, ready to sing their hearts out one minute and groan at misplaced passes the next (and this is Anfield we're talking about). It took Rafa's CL win to bring that Anfield roar back, just like it took Lambert's youngsters pulling off some famous scalps towards the tail end of last season to finally lift the Villa fans out of the stupor Alex Mcleish put them in.

I think history has shown that more often than not, the team first lifts the fans, who then respond to that by lifting the players, who then respond by playing better, and so on, generating a positively reinforcing reaction. Sure, sometimes fans inspire the players to up their game consistently, but not very often, and certainly not in the modern era (in England, anyway).

I think we need our boys to pull off something big. A Europa League win, perhaps, or an FA cup success, or top four and the COC. If they do that, the belief will filter through to the fans, who then will feel justified in taking a risk and cheering the team on again. It has to come from the players. If the fans are to become big time, we first need the players to show that they can be consistently big time.

Considering that they can walk away from the club at will, earn millions even when playing badly and almost to a man have no connection to the local area (all symptoms of the alienating effect of modern football)..it's really their move, to be honest.
 
it still looks like we dont practice our corners....why???](*,)

Every week I ask the same question, what do these players do all week in training, because it blatantly isnt practicising setpieces, if they are though, the coach needs shooting (preferably not by Paulinho or Townsend though)
 
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