Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Raziel]

Sorry, but you need to get a grip on your expectations. Give me an example (outside Leicsters freak season) where a team went from finishing 17th to competing for trophies. Not a cup run with lucky draws, but an actual team that went from 17th to putting in consistent high quality performances that had them at the top end of the table and competing in cups. There's no team in history that has done that. certainly not in the modern game. Progress is all you can ask for from a manager. I'm not saying Frank is the manager that gets us that, but expectations have to be realistic.

Honestly nonsense, my expectations are we beat Wolves at home, we beat Brentford home and away, we beat this dogbrick forest side, we beat this dogbrick version of Bournemouth, we beat Sunderland home and away, we beat Fulham at home.

You will never get perfect results but convert 2-3 of those results (still brick the bed on 4) and we would be in a position aligned with your "unrealistic" expectations.

Our average position over 20+ years is 5.x on table, outside of last year, the worst result was one 12th and one 8th IIRC, last year is meant to be a blip.

The problem is this manager thinks exactly likely your post, no ambition and fear at sides we must expect to win against.

 

[braineclipse]

Does changing the 1st team manager really change the squad that much though? Personally, I think it is massively overstated. What changes the squad is buying badly in the first place regardless who the manager is. There is also a reason why this can now change and that is the financial model you talk about. As an example, we saw pretty much every signing in Jose's tenure leave the club within 2-3 seasons. Not one of them made it but we were buying under financial constraints related to COVID. There is no reason for us to be like that now. With a fully stacked and balanced squad, we just need upgrades regardless of which manager we proceed with.

We need to upgrade Vicario, Davies, Dragusin, Betancur, Palhinha, Johnson, Richi and Muani. It looks like we've started that process with Johnson and Davies this window. Dragusin looks like he's next with his likely replacement, Vuskovic, already on the books.

I have no doubts that if Frank left and someone like Poch came in next season we'd be just fine with this squad.

I'm not sure I entirely understand your point.

I don't think the squad is balanced. I agree we need upgrades, I think it matters greatly what kind of football we're envisioning playing now and in the coming years when we try to sign those reinforcement.

Said this before, but it Frankball (with Frank or someone like him) and building on the way we've played this season is the plan for the future a properly big target man striker should be high up the list of priorities. If we're gonna flip flop again that may not be the preferred striker profile to go for.

Other styles of play require other profiles before the squad resembles balance in terms of having the profiles necessary to play that style well.

You say upgrade Vicario. Another example. Should we prioritise the quality a new goalkeeper has with the ball at his feet? Ability to defend crosses? Act as a sweeper keeper? That depends on how we want to play.

We need upgrades regardless, but what kind of upgrades that would do us the most good depends on how we want to play.

 

[braineclipse]

To make my point another way, absolutely any mention of 17th last year also needs to include the mention of the Europa win. Because you could also say that no clubs that have finished in the last place before relegation have pulled something like that off. Clearly it was a special circumstance, and clearly we were lead by someone who was willing to think very differently about how we could win something despite the horrific circumstances we faced.

That’s why I don’t buy this idea that improving from 17th would be some big achievement. If we were favourites for Europa and should have walked it anyway, clearly we’re not a 17th placed squad. A simple way of looking at it would be to say that averaging out the Europa win and the 17th placed finish probably equals out to a 10th place finish. And maybe with all the injuries you take that to go again next year. If we finished 10th last year with no trophy, would we then be accepting of 10th and no trophy this year? Would that constitute improvement? Would it have been worth it? (Maybe, if as I say Vinai is Mr Long Term, but they would owe it to the fans to nail their flag to the mast and defend the fact that they were willing to write off another league season to build toward some ultimate goal that isn’t obvious to most right now…)

I don’t think Frank is building on a 17th placed finish. If we ignore the trophy, he’s building on a side that routinely qualified for Europe through the league but slipped the previous season due to an u precedented injury crisis. That’s why I think we should at least be competing in the European places, or making a serious cup run this year. Something for the season not to be a waste. Something for the upheaval to have been worth it. (Again, I’m very open to the idea there’s a long term play, but it wasn’t what was communicated at the start of this season and it hasn’t been articulated well at all through a tough period)

Good points.

I think it's also worth stating that we ended up 17th with the worst injury crisis I can remember seeing at the club. Up until the injuries got real bad we were 6th ish iirc last season. And it wasn't like we were lucky to be there, that was even with some real inconsistency and disappointing results in that first third of the season.

Unfortunately we now seem stuck in a somewhat similar spiral to last season with regards to injuries. Several players missing, fatigue amongst those who do play, limited rotation for important players because of a lack of available options and (imo) a manager being very much under pressure to get the next result. Leading to more injuries and the injury problems continuing.

 

[kb 1984]

What was scary was a friend of mine who supports QPR told me Brendan Rogers was replacing Frank. The look on my face must have said it all because he started laughing. I said don't joke about things like that. Jesus

 

[braineclipse]

Sorry, but you need to get a grip on your expectations. Give me an example (outside Leicsters freak season) where a team went from finishing 17th to competing for trophies. Not a cup run with lucky draws, but an actual team that went from 17th to putting in consistent high quality performances that had them at the top end of the table and competing in cups. There's no team in history that has done that. certainly not in the modern game. Progress is all you can ask for from a manager. I'm not saying Frank is the manager that gets us that, but expectations have to be realistic.

I doubt "competing on all fronts" meant competing for trophies, given the context of the rest of the post.

Progress, sure. That's a decent expectation. I'm not seeing progress. I'm seeing the kind of situation that the vast majority of the time ends with the manager getting sacked.

We have two "easier" league games coming up now then the fixture list gets real tough. We're mid January now and we've won two league games since October.

 

[metalgear]

i am optimistic now with solanke back and xavi having seem to have broken through a mental barrier

that goal through the middle is exactly how France U21s play - quick passing in triangles - hopefully frank takes courage from going direct centrally instead of wide

also glad we are out of the FA cup - we need less games not more and all those who said that there we need all those games what do you say now with our current injury list?

 

[Mcfee]

Honestly nonsense, my expectations are we beat Wolves at home, we beat Brentford home and away, we beat this dogbrick forest side, we beat this dogbrick version of Bournemouth, we beat Sunderland home and away, we beat Fulham at home.

You will never get perfect results but convert 2-3 of those results (still brick the bed on 4) and we would be in a position aligned with your "unrealistic" expectations.

Our average position over 20+ years is 5.x on table, outside of last year, the worst result was one 12th and one 8th IIRC, last year is meant to be a blip.

The problem is this manager thinks exactly likely your post, no ambition and fear at sides we must expect to win against.

Of all the things that have happened since the end of last season what tinkles me off the most is how expectations appear to have been dumbed down at this club.

 

[harr1984]

Of all the things that have happened since the end of last season what tinkles me off the most is how expectations appear to have been dumbed down at this club.

Yes, apparently you can't really expect any more than what we are getting from these players What struck me is that no one is confident we will beat West Ham, that is how far we have fallen.

I don't mind people saying you need to give Frank time, i want to see him finish the season to have some proper conclusions. But to insist that this squad is punching at the level it should and Frank can't be expected to do anymore with? I'm not having it....

 

[El Dante]

Too many people are saying ‘we were 17th last season, so midtable is a big step up’. No it isn’t. We should never have been anywhere close to 17th last season. That we finished there got Ange the sack in spite of winning the Europa League. So that’s how poor it was and how far removed from where we are.

Midtable should be the lowest we had finished. So if we return to that position we are finishing the lowest that we should finish. I don’t think that that’s any positive reflection of a good set up and manager.

 

[Surfless]

It's not me that should stop posting, it's you. Because you keep living in lala land in thinking that this win run under Frank will come. How about this, you stop posting until we get 8 wins out of 10 PL games and I will stop posting for 6 months after that comes? Put your "money" where your mouth is.

Yeah you lack humour to go with your already positive outlook on life clearly. Let's just agree we won't bother each other again.

 

[Mikey10]

Of all the things that have happened since the end of last season what tinkles me off the most is how expectations appear to have been dumbed down at this club.

Would that be the season when it was apparently fine to lose 22 PL games?

 

[Mcfee]

Would that be the season when it was apparently fine to lose 22 PL games?

Who said it was fine?

 

[thfcsteff]

Would that be the season when it was apparently fine to lose 22 PL games?

But what does hammering this stat mean to you mate? What's the story? Let's forget about the trophy (in fairness it seems many already have). Did that mean that this season was to be expected? Why then were all the things said by Frank and VV about 'standing on the shoulders of others' and 'building on great foundations' and 'winning more trophies'?
Why not be honest and say that yes, silverware was great but to extricate ourselves from our poor PL form is going to be hard work and we must accept we will suffer? Why not be honest at the start???

Look, I know you want Frank to be given time. The truth is, we're beyond the stage where there's any real control over that; it is getting sticky for him. I actually cease to find him at fault anymore. In fact, I would sack Lange and get a new DoF before anything at this point, because the DoF sets the tone. The football club is currently a product of his architecture and desired style; it is unfair to blame to building foreman for that. As for the players, they're more than good enough to build a great house, but if you keep giving them naff materials they're confused by, well, the house won't look so good (sorry, wandered into metaphorland there again!!!)

 

[Mcfee]

Yes, apparently you can't really expect any more than what we are getting from these players What struck me is that no one is confident we will beat West Ham, that is how far we have fallen.

I don't mind people saying you need to give Frank time, i want to see him finish the season to have some proper conclusions. But to insist that this squad is punching at the level it should and Frank can't be expected to do anymore with? I'm not having it....

But I’m not saying that it’s just people on here. It comes from the club. At the start of the season I didn’t really expect much better than mid-table (as Finney has highlighted). If you hire Thomas Frank then mid-table is where you’re at. Even more so if you hang your hat on James Maddison as your main creative outlet. (Sorry to diss James, he’s a fine player and a loss but he’s inconsistent).
And that pre-dates Frank. The debate here seems to divided on the basis of those who think it’s TFs fault and those who blame the players. I think it’s both!

 

[Hotspur75]

I did actually wonder if someone like Palhinha, Gray or Tel (the strong characters) took the reins. A bit like Romero and vdV did in Frankfurt.

I think Xavi decided to play more through the middle, possibly by himself - he's quite a character. Very clear to see that he opted against playing it out wide several times in the second half.

 

[harr1984]

But I’m not saying that it’s just people on here. It comes from the club. At the start of the season I didn’t really expect much better than mid-table (as Finney has highlighted). If you hire Thomas Frank then mid-table is where you’re at. Even more so if you hang your hat on James Maddison as your main creative outlet. (Sorry to diss James, he’s a fine player and a loss but he’s inconsistent).
And that pre-dates Frank. The debate here seems to divided on the basis of those who think it’s TFs fault and those who blame the players. I think it’s both!

Agree, I've always said this. We need some better players for sure, I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise. But Frank has to take some of the blame for the football and output too. As do the owners, It's a combination of things that have led us to this point, it's not all Frank and it's not all on the quality of our squad.

But in regards to the manager, with where we are at I think the fans right now need to see something they believe in and can get behind. Second half yesterday we had that, and the whole stadium reacted and was so much more positive. The football wasn't perfect, and never will be with this set of players but the intent was there and we at least gave a decent account of ourselves against apparently one of the top 4 teams in the league.

If Frank can use that and get more of that second half performance from the players then great. If we go back to what we have seen for much of the season against West Ham then I'm really not sure Frank is the guy to take things forward. I'm open to all possibilities to be honest.....

 

[DubSpur]

Moyes’ Everton finished 17th and then 4th.

But in all seriousness, I don’t look at our squad and think we should be anywhere near 17th, I think that’s mad. I think you need to raise yours. We were not the 17th best team in the league last year, it was an exceptional circumstance that will likely never be repeated. We were 5th the season before, and our squad last year was better than the season we got 5th,

Any manager would have had us well ahead of 17th this year. I don’t think I need to get a grip on my expectations at all. The club set them. More wins more often. Competing on all fronts. @Finney Is Back did a great job of surfacing the poll earlier. Barely anyone was saying 8th or less.

We are in dreadful form, and confidence is on the floor. I think it has spiralled and become a thing in and of itself. And is affecting the players. But I don’t think anyone at the club would have been thinking at the start of the year they’d be happy with just 8th. Or thinking anything above 17th was improvement. Only if you took completely the wrong reading from what actually happened last year would you think that.

That season Everton weren't in Europe and went out of both cups early. So they didn't compete across all compeitions or compete for trophies. The next season they dropped off again in the league.

At the start of a season, new manager, just won a trophy, fans get carried away with expectations. It's human nature.
Reality is that we were 17th last season. Finishing in the top half and showing progress in the way we play is a good improvement.
I'd be worried if the board were expecting us to be suddenly competing for the CL places. Getting into Europe in any form would be very good progress.

I'm not defending Frank here. So far I don't see anything on the pitch, outside 45 mins yesterday, that gives me hope that he is the right man for the job. 14th, poor football, no real signs of any identity, no patterns in attack, no signs of progress, and sliding down the table at the moment. That's not acceptable.

 

[DubSpur]

Honestly nonsense, my expectations are we beat Wolves at home, we beat Brentford home and away, we beat this dogbrick forest side, we beat this dogbrick version of Bournemouth, we beat Sunderland home and away, we beat Fulham at home.

You will never get perfect results but convert 2-3 of those results (still brick the bed on 4) and we would be in a position aligned with your "unrealistic" expectations.

Our average position over 20+ years is 5.x on table, outside of last year, the worst result was one 12th and one 8th IIRC, last year is meant to be a blip.

The problem is this manager thinks exactly likely your post, no ambition and fear at sides we must expect to win against.

Your expectations are to beat Brentford home and away, a team that are 5th and playing well? Maybe you should look at how team are performing instead of their name. Yes, we should be beating a rubbish Wolves side and the lower half teams and not playing the defensive crap against them that we've seen.

My post doesn't lack ambition, it's being realistic and realising that continous progress over a few seasons will get us back regularly competing, not just a one off season. Arsenal didn't go from midtable in 2020 under Arteta to really competing in one season. They needed to implement his style and get the players. Was that a lack of ambition?

 

[veryoldspur]

It won't be long until we are knocked out of CL, and because we don't have a chance of winning it the sooner the better for me. The reality is then we have to concentrate on staying up. People say that we can't go down, but I disagree. It will only take West Ham to beat us and then go on a bit of a run and we can get dragged into the bottom three. Frank doesn't appear to know what he is doing, the players look lost and aren't motivated, the board are unlikely to make any significant signings, and there is a discourse between the supporters and just about anything to do with the club

 

[Muttley]

I'm not sure I entirely understand your point.

I don't think the squad is balanced. I agree we need upgrades, I think it matters greatly what kind of football we're envisioning playing now and in the coming years when we try to sign those reinforcement.

Said this before, but it Frankball (with Frank or someone like him) and building on the way we've played this season is the plan for the future a properly big target man striker should be high up the list of priorities. If we're gonna flip flop again that may not be the preferred striker profile to go for.

Other styles of play require other profiles before the squad resembles balance in terms of having the profiles necessary to play that style well.

You say upgrade Vicario. Another example. Should we prioritise the quality a new goalkeeper has with the ball at his feet? Ability to defend crosses? Act as a sweeper keeper? That depends on how we want to play.

We need upgrades regardless, but what kind of upgrades that would do us the most good depends on how we want to play.

I just think that most great players transcend different tactical systems. Romero has played well in Conte's 3-4-3. He then transitioned into Ange's high back line / offside trap based defence and then finally into Frank's more orthodox approach. I've not really see him struggle but have made the statement that he is best suited to Frank's system. That isn't dissimilar to the one he won the world cup in. I guess my point is that if you buy the quality of player in the first place then it's just so much easier to transition. Perhaps you find your diversity of player in that last 10-20% of player choice.

As for Vic, I don't think he kicks the ball well in any system. Even in Frank's system where he is allowed to put his foot through it he keeps slicing it and even misses the entire pitch at times. He's definitely not intricate enough to play in a Pep system either. Most of all he is just not good with a moving ball. I think there will be GK's out there that can command their box, use their feet and have the shot stopping and aerial abilities. Not sure it's our first priority though and I would always prioritise quality over quantity when developing a squad. I'd happily just see us buy one or two great 1st team players each window. Buying 5 or 6 has never worked.