• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Thomas Frank - Head Coach

In fairness to Frank I think the plan was something like this:

First 30 minutes: blitz them. High line, high press. High tempo. Forward runners. Get ahead. Basically Klopp’s Liverpool,

When one goal ahead: see out the half. Mid block. Controlled possession.

Start of second half: mid-low block and counter at pace.

The reason I’d make a distinction between purely holding on to what we have and the counter at pace part is because there’s been plenty of games where we have overtly not countered when we had opportunities. We’ve deliberately slowed it down to maintain possession. And I didn’t get the sense we were doing that at the start of the second half. We’d retreated in territory, but still wanted to score. The players just didn’t execute.

I think when they really started to throw men forward and increase the tempo, something broke down there. I think VDV was getting lazy, and in general for a few minutes they were finding space in our shape in a way Palace and Brentford didn’t really. At that point we really needed to dig in but couldn’t. I’m not sure why it broke down - maybe I’ve been harsh on VDV but maybe he was reacting to a tiring Davies starting his first game? Maybe VDV was tired himself? Not sure,

I think the goals for column made Frank's mind up. Arsenal have scored 40 goals so if we played like we did in the first half against them then you just know they will create chances and probably score against us. So you don't setup like that for Arsenal.

Sunderland had scored 20 goals which was 3rd worst in the league. The worst is Wolves on 14 at the start of the day. So Frank was saying to himself that it's OK to go at them because if there was turnover ball then we would still recover and stop them creating chances. It was the right choice in this match. Sunderland's league position going into the game was based on their 18 goals conceded and that told us that they were a defend first team.

So we clearly loosened the shackles and it should have worked based on that first half. It's a shame that we lacked quality in the final third today throughout the 90. Any of those nearly moments are executed better and we win.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DTA
how will time make it better? Depends how long you want to consider.

Short term - players come back - Solanke, Maddison, Kulusevski, all adding to the depth and creativity of the squad. Performances improve.
Short term - the monkey on the backs of the players at home is starting to lift - a couple of better performances and results and this will hopefully improve further.
Mid term - the manager who supposedly doesn't get our club starts to generate a team that works as a fluid attacking unit, helped by the return of those players above, plus the further development of Kudus, Xavi, and the returning Mikey Moore. Vuskovic comes in to the side, and quickly turns into one of the best centre backs in the world. Bergvall and Gray fulfil their potential and the new board invests in quality players across the team in a calm and progressive manner, accepting that short termism will simply yield the same as the Levy years - success is more luck than judgement.
Long term - football finally regulates its teams in such a way that financial doping is outlawed, and as the best run financially in the league, Tottenham dominate the league for years to come, lead by captain Vuskovic.

Now - you will reply saying I can't know that any of that is going to happen - and you're right - but by the same token you can't simply say that time won't make things better - you haven't got a crystal ball.

Its not fun right now, but the manager is very very capable and needs to be afforded time to shape the squad to suit him - and that is more than one window and pre-season.

ok, and lets say I 100% agree with you, it now becomes a risk/reward conversation, i.e.

- Do we just give him time because it "may" come better or
- Do what we did with Nuno and go "hey, sorry, it's not the fit we thought it would be and put our resources elsewhere"

For me, 3 wins in last 11, 3 goals (none from open play) in last 5 games, miserable xG, 12th place, likely will be out our last real shot at a trophy within a week says the risk/trend is not heading in right direction.

FWIW, I don't the club will fire him yet, we are going to be watching more of this for the rest of season
 
Bloody hell you really don’t like the bloke! Comparisons at this stage of the season are pointless? Have Brentford had to manage 2 games a week? They came to our gaff and we played them off the park a few weeks ago. I thought we were good today but lacked a cutting edge. Even in the “poor” second half we still created more chances than them. I remember them creating one quality chance from which they scored. That despite us having a patched up attack.

I have nothing against the guy .. just really tired of watching my club play so badly for 29 games that 45 mins of decent but toothless football against Sunderland is something for people to hang hope on, just like conceding 5 against PSG was a "good" game.

Everyday the standards drop, the club that would have fired a manager for being in 8th (a practice that gave us our best league results in a 20 year period in the entire history of the club), somehow has become ok with losing to dross, scrapping wins and sitting for months in the bottom half of the table.

I remember people on this board lecturing me about winning mentality, that Spurs will never be anything because we don't act like winners, winners don't accept 12th-17th as part of the process. Arteta's brick first 2 seasons were 8th twice.
 
I remember people on this board lecturing me about winning mentality, that Spurs will never be anything because we don't act like winners, winners don't accept 12th-17th as part of the process. Arteta's brick first 2 seasons were 8th twice.
Arsenal hadn't finished lower than 6th for the 20 odd years before he turned up, they were also a dynasty in that time.

Comparisons like that like show people dont know our own club whilst throwing shade on the managers for not knowing. Maybe they do know and verbalise it and we just cant accept that Spurs are a club that needs alot of work to be compared to those other clubs or consistently be classed as a big club
 
One thing to share...during the pod just now, we opened up a conversation as to why Thomas Frank is actually (in several senses) relatively blameless regardless of our views on how this club should play or not.
He appears to be doing the very best job he can. I have to remind myself of the Sissoko rule; don't expect Pirlo/prime Eriksen from Sissoko. Don't expect expansive, free-flowing football from Frank. It is simply unfair. Further, he can only accept the job he is offered and do it to best of HIS abilities!!!

Increasingly, I want to know more about the reasons behind the decision to hire him. At the time I said he was the best hire for the club we were set up to be; I now find myself wanting to know more details about who is making the decisions as to 'what club we are going to be' and who drove the appt? We discuss this on the pod. It arrives at a couple of interesting places. I'll say this much again; I cannot blame Frank as he he is the type of manager he is (and, in the right set-up, a very decent one at what he does). We're sort of back at Conte again; IF the people who chose him really want him, they're going to have to give him elite all over the place and spend a lot of money, because his way leaves no margin for errors if trophies are the endgame. It's something others have said. I still believe this squad -if deployed as it was in the first-half- can win a lot more games than it has. But yes, the ideal would be to back him 100% IF the direction he travels is what the board believe this club should be. FWIW, that style is counter to what I like, however I support the club wherever it goes...
 
I didn't want him, don't think he's the right manager at all but hard to put this result at his door imo. We played really well in the first half, seemingly because he understood the criticism and let some of our young attackers go at them. Had we got that 2nd goal early in the second half, we'd probably have comfortably won 2/3-0. But the Premier League is ruthless, and Sunderland's confidence is about as high as ours is low at the moment.

I still think he's done. If he turns it around from here he'll likely go down as one of our best managers. But I've no issues with what he gave us yesterday.
 
One thing to share...during the pod just now, we opened up a conversation as to why Thomas Frank is actually (in several senses) relatively blameless regardless of our views on how this club should play or not.
He appears to be doing the very best job he can. I have to remind myself of the Sissoko rule; don't expect Pirlo/prime Eriksen from Sissoko. Don't expect expansive, free-flowing football from Frank. It is simply unfair. Further, he can only accept the job he is offered and do it to best of HIS abilities!!!

Increasingly, I want to know more about the reasons behind the decision to hire him. At the time I said he was the best hire for the club we were set up to be; I now find myself wanting to know more details about who is making the decisions as to 'what club we are going to be' and who drove the appt? We discuss this on the pod. It arrives at a couple of interesting places. I'll say this much again; I cannot blame Frank as he he is the type of manager he is (and, in the right set-up, a very decent one at what he does). We're sort of back at Conte again; IF the people who chose him really want him, they're going to have to give him elite all over the place and spend a lot of money, because his way leaves no margin for errors if trophies are the endgame. It's something others have said. I still believe this squad -if deployed as it was in the first-half- can win a lot more games than it has. But yes, the ideal would be to back him 100% IF the direction he travels is what the board believe this club should be. FWIW, that style is counter to what I like, however I support the club wherever it goes...
I assume he was appointed because he was Lange's mate. The same as Ange was Munn's mate. Xavi or Iraola would have been much more logical appointments.

For all Ange's incompetence, at least he ended the doom spiral of negative football of his 3 predecessors. But now we're in limbo again - no one likes the direction, so everyone puts brakes on, whether its us fans with the boring boring chants, or maybe the DoFs buying slightly more technique over brawn
 
I assume he was appointed because he was Lange's mate. The same as Ange was Munn's mate. Xavi or Iraola would have been much more logical appointments.

For all Ange's incompetence, at least he ended the doom spiral of negative football of his 3 predecessors. But now we're in limbo again - no one likes the direction, so everyone puts brakes on, whether its us fans with the boring boring chants, or maybe the DoFs buying slightly more technique over brawn

I think it is only fair to Frank to openly discuss this.
Furthermore, I think Frank is being left to weather it all again with zero public support from Lange and Venketeshum, bar the odd leaked 'heard he's got full support' stuff.
If Venketeshum wanted to directly support Frank, he could easily give a 'half-season review' on the club's socials outlining what's been going on and where we currently are versus where we're going. I have to wonder if he's being told to stay quiet by the Lewis family, who might have other plans. It's a mess from this side of the fence!!!
 
i think the interesting thing is how vinai was brought in and what were the reasons for giving levy the boot.
obviously whatever is happening now, the owners and vinai are not going to blame themselves.

personally loved conte and if you've followed enough world cups, that's how you win trophies. i never saw it as boring when kane was deep and son scoring for fun, but i believe that became a problem and conte was forced to change things. i think some autistic psycho like tuchel is needed now for a steep culture change. look at romero, world cup winning captain casually making mistakes and porro blaming everyone when his passes put the receiving players under pressure. the rot is deep.

One thing to share...during the pod just now, we opened up a conversation as to why Thomas Frank is actually (in several senses) relatively blameless regardless of our views on how this club should play or not.
He appears to be doing the very best job he can. I have to remind myself of the Sissoko rule; don't expect Pirlo/prime Eriksen from Sissoko. Don't expect expansive, free-flowing football from Frank. It is simply unfair. Further, he can only accept the job he is offered and do it to best of HIS abilities!!!

Increasingly, I want to know more about the reasons behind the decision to hire him. At the time I said he was the best hire for the club we were set up to be; I now find myself wanting to know more details about who is making the decisions as to 'what club we are going to be' and who drove the appt? We discuss this on the pod. It arrives at a couple of interesting places. I'll say this much again; I cannot blame Frank as he he is the type of manager he is (and, in the right set-up, a very decent one at what he does). We're sort of back at Conte again; IF the people who chose him really want him, they're going to have to give him elite all over the place and spend a lot of money, because his way leaves no margin for errors if trophies are the endgame. It's something others have said. I still believe this squad -if deployed as it was in the first-half- can win a lot more games than it has. But yes, the ideal would be to back him 100% IF the direction he travels is what the board believe this club should be. FWIW, that style is counter to what I like, however I support the club wherever it goes...
 
I think the goals for column made Frank's mind up. Arsenal have scored 40 goals so if we played like we did in the first half against them then you just know they will create chances and probably score against us. So you don't setup like that for Arsenal.

Sunderland had scored 20 goals which was 3rd worst in the league. The worst is Wolves on 14 at the start of the day. So Frank was saying to himself that it's OK to go at them because if there was turnover ball then we would still recover and stop them creating chances. It was the right choice in this match. Sunderland's league position going into the game was based on their 18 goals conceded and that told us that they were a defend first team.

So we clearly loosened the shackles and it should have worked based on that first half. It's a shame that we lacked quality in the final third today throughout the 90. Any of those nearly moments are executed better and we win.

Yeah I think it’s pretty clear now the patterns with which we set up now that we’ve played everyone in the league.

Today’s game followed a similar pattern to Wolves at home. To Burnley. And actually was probably the intent at home to Fulham too - we were crazily open in the first few mins and them scoring 2 was the icing on the cake there.

Away games have also followed a similar pattern, eg Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Palace, Brentford.

And home games against better sides have too.

That’s where I think Frank is getting misunderstood as an overly defensive coach. He’s just so much about the opposition, the context, and the game state. And it means that we simply have to execute in the moments where we are driving towards a particular outcome. Eg if we’re in a 30 minutes blitz phase, we simply have to score. And probably score two. If we’re in a defend the box phase, we simply cannot concede.

So much of failing to execute in those moments makes our job twice as hard. But if we do execute, it’s hard for the opposition to counter punch because we’ve prepared for every eventuality.
 
*request* - does anyone know where you can get distance covered stats for all teams in the league? I’m wanting to test my theory about Frank varying the intensity and my suspicion is we are quite low down the table on distance covered. I would believe that would be intentional.
 
One thing to share...during the pod just now, we opened up a conversation as to why Thomas Frank is actually (in several senses) relatively blameless regardless of our views on how this club should play or not.
He appears to be doing the very best job he can. I have to remind myself of the Sissoko rule; don't expect Pirlo/prime Eriksen from Sissoko. Don't expect expansive, free-flowing football from Frank. It is simply unfair. Further, he can only accept the job he is offered and do it to best of HIS abilities!!!

Increasingly, I want to know more about the reasons behind the decision to hire him. At the time I said he was the best hire for the club we were set up to be; I now find myself wanting to know more details about who is making the decisions as to 'what club we are going to be' and who drove the appt? We discuss this on the pod. It arrives at a couple of interesting places. I'll say this much again; I cannot blame Frank as he he is the type of manager he is (and, in the right set-up, a very decent one at what he does). We're sort of back at Conte again; IF the people who chose him really want him, they're going to have to give him elite all over the place and spend a lot of money, because his way leaves no margin for errors if trophies are the endgame. It's something others have said. I still believe this squad -if deployed as it was in the first-half- can win a lot more games than it has. But yes, the ideal would be to back him 100% IF the direction he travels is what the board believe this club should be. FWIW, that style is counter to what I like, however I support the club wherever it goes...

for discussion purposes, not sure if I see it the same way. Here's my view

- Ange scared the club on the injury front, the sheer extent of 14 players being out, the rash of significant long term (full season) injuries included gave the leadership major concerns
- I genuinely think that is what ruled out Iraola, I think the club looked seriously at him and the unsustainable intensity was the deal breaker
- I think the legacies of Jose and Conte often just being unlikeable, with Ange being the opposite meant, one of the characteristics (Vinai/Lange I think talked about this, what they were looking for) was a decent/likeable guy (probably also to ease the pushback from firing a recently cup delivering manager)
- The other Ange hangover, along with what people could see at United (think at some point Amorim was on our radar as well), was the concern about managers that were inflexible, so in that characteristics box went tactical flexibility.
- Then you could probably add the bonus boxes -> managed/proven in PL, data driven, modern approaches

You take those, look at the next set of manager in line for a step up -> Iraola, Frank, Silva, etc and you can see why Frank was an option (I'll not add my original concerns)

Where I disagree with you is
- I thought as most people did, that Frank's tactics were based on what he had (smallest budget of any ever present PL team in his time at Brentford), i.e. if you give him better, the team would play better (they were more expansive by most reports in championship)

What I'm not seeing is any evidence of that, what I'm seeing is a guy that will play the same "don't lose, don't create risk to impose yourself regardless of the gap in talent between your team and opposition" even if he had a better striker/LW/CM, again look at United, added a better keeper, added 200M+ in front line, are the results better? yes, because they will keep out a few more, and score a few more, but realistically they still play brick.

And I don't think the comparison's to Conte are even close, Conte knew exactly what he wanted out of each player, they knew where to be, we knew we were a mid block team setup to counter, we knew we gave up a numerical advantage in midfield (only pre-injury Bentancur made it work). With Conte it was easy to see where upgrading a player could change the result. I still don't understand what is our press trigger under Frank, why do it sometimes not others, why swap between being high, mid or low block?

While I agree I don't think he's actively trying to be brick, I think Frank is unfortunately (and I have nothing personal against the guy) is a Potter, the risk/reward/small club (not meant as a dig) tactics simply don't translate at this level (even with better players), because we need to take more risks so we get those 5-6 more wins a season that are the difference between 10th-14th and 4th-7th, at Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth 10th is a good season, at Spurs 10th is the 3rd worst result in 20+ years.

And this is already an essay but someone was commenting on Pep's changes over the years and he said the consistency was Pep was constantly trying to do two things
- Create overloads in spaces (so you outnumber your opponent and can pass/move around them)
- And/or create isolations (1:1s where the quality of his players would shine through)

And the second point is where I think managers making that step up fail, it was a flaw under Ange (he focused so much on the overloads it rarely allowed us to rely simply on having better players, especially against lesser teams). Frank is the same, he doesn't have a system that gives Kudus a change to go at his man (we won't stretch the game or pass decisively to give him an advantage), instead we thump the ball at him under pressure as an outlet ball instead of using him as a weapon, same for Richi, play a player off him and get him lots of balls in the box to make him score, not bang the ball to him in the air with his back to goal 35 yards out. And I think you agree with me on Johnson, he may not have been the guy, but how the fudge did we not try him off the striker as a second forward considering how much of a finisher he was (and if it didn't work, so be it, but we never even tried). And again this smacks of a manager who has never thought about what happens if I have the better team across the park? it so feels like we are the promoted club that needs to grind every game, take every draw as a good game with the odd win (3 wins in last 11)

Summary, he is probably doing his best, but for the above reasons I don't think it works and I don't see how giving him money really changes it, sure a better striker would win us the odd extra game, a better midfielder might help us grind another draw out, but I don't see how he makes that transition to not only the tactics but putting the mentality into the players of "you are expected to win this game"
 
Arsenal hadn't finished lower than 6th for the 20 odd years before he turned up, they were also a dynasty in that time.

Comparisons like that like show people dont know our own club whilst throwing shade on the managers for not knowing. Maybe they do know and verbalise it and we just cant accept that Spurs are a club that needs alot of work to be compared to those other clubs or consistently be classed as a big club

We had finished outside top 6, twice in 20 years prior to last season, with the outlier being 11th. We fudging created the concept of big 6 (it was Sky 4 before). Our average finishing position I think is 5.x for 20 years, failure to deliver the final step doesn't change the fact we were challenging (think it's also 22+ QF/SF or Final appearances in that time). We are not Villa, Everton, West Ham who had a couple of good years here or there and more brick years.

I'm sorry, the fact that Ange & Frank have our own fanbase believing that bottom half results is acceptable tells of the damage they have done, it's why the players roll over. And the longer we keep Frank, the longer this will take to reverse

Jol, Harry, AVB, Poch, Jose, Conte, Ange all showed the resources given are enough for top 5, do we need January reinforcements? yes but if this squad finishes outside of top 8, it's massive underperformance.
 
Back