Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Mabspurs]

Firstly, a top 5 team wouldn't target players to keep them a top 5 team. They look for better to go on to win the title.

Udogie
Romero
VDV
Porro
Spence
Kulu
Bergvall
Bentancur
Johnson (snapped up for £35m by a team ahead of us, 3pts off top 5, and that finished of us last season)
Simons

You might say no, but now look at arsenal and think back to when they weren't at arsenal.... The following players were not top 5 players until they took a punt on them -Arteta made them work:
Rice
Eze
Gyokeres
Odegaard - do you think real Madrid would have sold this version of odegaard?
Madueke
Trossard
Nordgaard
White
Kepa
Raya (people questioned why they signed him when they had Ramsdale)

How you might say Poch had players to win the league.... Then why did only Kane and Walker end up at a truly top team? The answer is simple, we had good players in a position when good players in those positions were readily available.

Thank you - you just made my point.

Have a nice day....

 

[parj]

Indeed.
We got to the CL Final with Winks and Sissoko in midfield.
I think a few people round here need to let that sink in.
In fact, all I’ve seen in what is another of these absurd ‘debates’ is that a lot more people than I thought did not really understand what Pochettino did, the circumstances under which he did what he did, and what he was looking to do once Levy and him ‘made-up’ after June 1st 2019 (the debate over whether they should’ve parted ways then is a far more interesting discussion IMO).
But again…Sissoko and Winks…

Oh damn, imagine having those two as your double pivot. Is there a team other than promoted Leicester that wanted either of them? I think we should reverse the question and ask what teams actually wanted members of that team?

Imagine the scenes if TF had Sanchez, Foyth, KWP, and Aurier as your defenders on the bench, and Lamela, Llorente, and Wanyama as your attacking options.... Only Moura was good enough to bring on. Before people say that was a great bench, most of those players didn't even end up at top 5 teams in the top 5 leagues.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Really? I want to see trophies in West Atrium... even if it means a dire, unexciting, performance like the ones in Bilbao or Leverkusen. And judging by the attendance in the parade, I don't seem to be the only one....

Leverkusen?!?

 

[parj]

Thank you - you just made my point.

Have a nice day....

But you didn't answer my question... If the players were so good, why did only Kane and Walker end up at a top team?

Don't forget, we have sold our top players under a enough pressure. Where were the top teams applying the pressure?

 

[Baleforce]

Being objective, Poch started with Hugo, Walker, Rose, Vertonghen, Dembele, Eriksen, Kane. Some great club work had been done on a couple of new signings as he joined, namely Dele, Dier and Sonny. Behind that came Toby and eventually Big Vic. All of a sudden we had a major force. Poch rolled up his sleeves and went to work nurturing the squad.

Frank knows he wasn't quite as lucky as Poch but it was a rosy picture. He has inherited a good bunch of players. We've done some great work in the transfer windows across multiple years but it's not quite at the level Poch inherited, at least I don't think so. We do have some outstanding players though and Frank is a luckier guy than our last 4 or 5 managers.

Saying "Frank-positive means our squad not being good" doesn't jive with me at all. It feels like a free hit at Frank to be fair.

Not to mention Lamela, who was the best of the lot.

 

[Baleforce]

Indeed.
We got to the CL Final with Winks and Sissoko in midfield.
I think a few people round here need to let that sink in.
In fact, all I’ve seen in what is another of these absurd ‘debates’ is that a lot more people than I thought did not really understand what Pochettino did, the circumstances under which he did what he did, and what he was looking to do once Levy and him ‘made-up’ after June 1st 2019 (the debate over whether they should’ve parted ways then is a far more interesting discussion IMO).
But again…Sissoko and Winks…

The sinking in that needs to happen over Sissoko is people realising what a good player he actually was.

The guy was an excellent defensive midfielder.

 

[Baleforce]

But you didn't answer my question... If the team was so good, why did only Kane and Walker end up at a top team?

Don't forget, we have sold our top players under a enough pressure. Where were the top teams applying the pressure?

At the time, we were a top side, they played for one already.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Im backing Frank today, one good performance, 3 points and come out of Christmas and New Year with 7 out of 9 points.

The Style Council can shout to the top about the eye test over points

 

[glasgowspur]

Firstly, a top 5 team wouldn't target players to keep them a top 5 team. They look for better to go on to win the title.

Udogie
Romero
VDV
Porro
Spence
Kulu
Bergvall
Bentancur
Johnson (snapped up for £35m by a team ahead of us, 3pts off top 5, and that finished of us last season)
Simons

You might say no, but now look at arsenal and think back to when they weren't at arsenal.... The following players were not top 5 players until they took a punt on them -Arteta made them work:
Rice
Eze
Gyokeres
Odegaard - do you think real Madrid would have sold this version of odegaard?
Madueke
Trossard
Nordgaard
White
Kepa
Raya (people questioned why they signed him when they had Ramsdale)

How you might say Poch had players to win the league.... Then why did only Kane and Walker end up at a truly top team? The answer is simple, we had good players in a position when good players in those positions were readily available.

Poch made it work because he played a system that got the best out of what he was given.
Unlike just about every manager since and quite a few before who tried to shoe horn unsuitable players into a system that the manager was wedded to.
We've sold loads of players deemed not good enough who have went on to other clubs, played in their proper position in a suitable role and been a success.
Our squad is not a bad squad if players are played in a system that suits them, this for me will be Frank's biggest issue, these player, this club and our fans will not put up with the system he will try to instill.
If he is wedded to this system he's dead.

 

[Baleforce]

Poch made it work because he played a system that got the best out of what he was given.
Unlike just about every manager since and quite a few before who tried to shoe horn unsuitable players into a system that the manager was wedded to.
We've sold loads of players deemed not good enough who have went on to other clubs, played in their proper position in a suitable role and been a success.
Our squad is not a bad squad if players are played in a system that suits them, this for me will be Frank's biggest issue, these player, this club and our fans will not put up with the system he will try to instill.
If he is wedded to this system he's dead.

thats not how its supposed to work, the players should follow instruction, and the fans shouldn't have any influence at all

 

[glasgowspur]

thats not how its supposed to work, the players should follow instruction, and the fans shouldn't have any influence at all

Few things work as they should.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Poch made it work because he played a system that got the best out of what he was given.
Unlike just about every manager since and quite a few before who tried to shoe horn unsuitable players into a system that the manager was wedded to.
We've sold loads of players deemed not good enough who have went on to other clubs, played in their proper position in a suitable role and been a success.
Our squad is not a bad squad if players are played in a system that suits them, this for me will be Frank's biggest issue, these player, this club and our fans will not put up with the system he will try to instill.
If he is wedded to this system he's dead.

I don’t think this is the case at all. Pochettino came into Spurs and implemented his preferred system and style. It was the same system and style he used at Southampton. He didn’t get off to a great start with that system, it started to click in the second half of the first season.

 

[parj]

The sinking in that needs to happen over Sissoko is people realising what a good player he actually was.

The guy was an excellent defensive midfielder.

Sissoko did not join us as a defensive midfielder. We signed him for our attack. That means he didn't workout in attack but the manager found a position for him that worked -so the manager did his job and adapted the player or the system to fit Sissoko in.

At the time, we were a top side, they played for one already.

Chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project, Real Madrid, Bayern, etc who could offer regular trophies plus a crap load of money wouldn't be attractive?


Come on, top clubs aren't top clubs for just a few years. If Poch had us declining within 5 years, then that would assume we were a top club before? And still are now. Or did Poch take some talented footballers, put them in a system and take them to another level? Something proven winners like Jose and Conte couldn't do?

My point being, TF has a good enough squad to show something other than fear. We can't fear conceding goals. We have to back players bought for an attacking system to be able to attack. We have good enough defenders that if we don't force them to be consistently on the back foot then they won't be under pressure and can control the game better.

TF has shown he can take players and make them over perform, but now he is at a club that most teams expect to sit back against.

 

[glasgowspur]

I don’t think this is the case at all. Pochettino came into Spurs and implemented his preferred system and style. It was the same system and style he used at Southampton. He didn’t get off to a great start with that system, it started to click in the second half of the first season.

He implemented a style similar to the one used at Southampton but not the same system as I recall.
There was lots talk about us going for a few of the Southampton players so Poch could basically transport his system over, none of them arrived and I don't think there was any credible links, it was all just gossip.
The players left Southampton and did nothing, one went to Liverpool and flopped, because again in my opinion they were good players in certain systems, take them out of that system and suddenly they're lost.
Actually speaking of Liverpool probably the best example I can think of is Andy Carroll, banging them in for Saudi Sportswashing Machine because they played to his strengths, bought by Liverpool who played a totally different game and he never reached those heights again.

 

[Muttley]

I do think Frank had inherited a good squad. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but remember, Pochs original remit was to try and keep us competitive for Europe until stadium is done and then kick on. Not even the club thought the squad was that good when Poch arrived.

In 6 years time, we could end up saying TF started with a better team than Poch because e have no idea the levels of the players yet but either way, we have to remember the manager has to coach the players and play in a system that works.

The manager that had the star players entering their prime was Jose and Conte.

I think we'll always say that Frank inherited a better overall squad than Poch but not a better core.

The interesting part is what comes next. For Poch, what came next was Dier, Toby, Sonny, Dele and Big Vic. If you look across Poch's entire tenure in that tough budget scenario, it is these 5 players that made the difference to the ones that were already at the club.

I will always keep endorsing that Spurs stop buying volume. Just get Frank the very few players that can make a difference.

 

[Muttley]

I’m not trying to free hit at Frank, I’m just calling it as I see it. It might not be universal on this board but so many of the people that are actually positive about Frank’s prospects are also the ones saying the squad isn’t very good and can’t be expected to play better football. To be clear, i think I’ve gone some way to trying to explain what I think Frank is trying to do. I think I could consider myself fairly Frank positive. But I don’t feel like I have to talk down the quality of the squad to do it. I think he deserves time because any good manager deserves time. And there are so many examples of clubs showing a bit of patience at the start of a tenure and reaping the rewards months or years down the line. For Spurs to not have the most money I think we have no other option to do exactly that. If Frank isn’t the right one, we can evaluate at the end of season one or two. But I’m not trying to take a shot at Frank.

I just think it’s interesting that all of these players hit their potential and performed at an elite level, all at the same time, under Poch. I think taking away Poch’s achievement in doing that is to excuse away the idea that a manager can actually have such a transformative impact. I believe they can. Yes the club did work to bring these players in, but they are precisely the players we have to take punts on because we can’t afford the finished articles. Same as now. I actually think there’s a chance that Frank’s method gets us to a good place too. But I find it interesting that people are like ‘Solanke being out means we can’t do XYZ’ when he’s been replaced by a World Cup finalist, French international who went for almost 100m not too long ago and performed well for Juventus last season. I just think this talking down of the squad options we have is excusing Frank. And I don’t think Frank needs the excuse.

I think Frank has good options. And I think his method is to make decisions that will pay off over the course of a season. So I’m waiting to see how it all plays out. But Poch’s Kane back up in his second season was Vincent Janssen. So let’s not act like Frank doesn’t have good options at his disposal.

I would probably need to see examples of posters saying that. You can probably tell with myself that I don't think the squad is poor as any argument for and against Frank. In fact, I'm into this DOF model where the squad will always keep evolving the squad and let that transcend manager changes. We've seen a couple of times recently where the manager has changed but the best players just assimilate quickly to the new manager's demand. Romero has had no issue switching between Conte, Ange and Frank's different defensive setups. He was just an amazing signing for our club and I want more of those.

When I think about it more Ange and Poch were chalk and cheese with their squads. Poch had a major cull over 2 summers and created a lean squad of about 15 core supplemented by the names you mention e.g. Janssen, Wimmer, NKrap etc. After the purchases of Dele, Son, Dier, Davies, Vic etc and the emergence of a young Winks, Poch had a fantastic core. There was no way Ange could sustain a small core. He seemed to need a very big squad and the club did well to build it out for him. Obviously it is Ange's extended squad that Frank inherited. Now we're seeing some early iterations from Frank. Brennan being rotated out is the first one of those as Frank puts his own stamp on it.

Personally, I'm not sure Frank will need a monster squad. I think we're more likely to see some unhappy peripheral players who aren't getting game time. That will be even more exaggerated if we lose UEFA comps next season.

We do need to see whether Frank can get a squad to peak together. Poch managed an age range of 9 years between Dele as the young guy and Mousa/Verts as the senior statesmen. He would have had them all in their twenties together briefly.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Sissoko did not join us as a defensive midfielder. We signed him for our attack. That means he didn't workout in attack but the manager found a position for him that worked -so the manager did his job and adapted the player or the system to fit Sissoko in.


Chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project, Real Madrid, Bayern, etc who could offer regular trophies plus a crap load of money wouldn't be attractive?


Come on, top clubs aren't top clubs for just a few years. If Poch had us declining within 5 years, then that would assume we were a top club before? And still are now. Or did Poch take some talented footballers, put them in a system and take them to another level? Something proven winners like Jose and Conte couldn't do?

My point being, TF has a good enough squad to show something other than fear. We can't fear conceding goals. We have to back players bought for an attacking system to be able to attack. We have good enough defenders that if we don't force them to be consistently on the back foot then they won't be under pressure and can control the game better.

TF has shown he can take players and make them over perform, but now he is at a club that most teams expect to sit back against.

We signed Sissoko because (as was often the case back then) we fudged up the transfer window, missing out on the manager’s top target of Wjinaldum because we wouldn’t pay the transfer fee Saudi Sportswashing Machine wanted. Made all the more ridiculous by us then paying a higher transfer fee when panic buying Sissoko in the last knockings of the transfer window to try to salvage something out of (another) bad window.

 

[parj]

I think we'll always say that Frank inherited a better overall squad than Poch but not a better core.

The interesting part is what comes next. For Poch, what came next was Dier, Toby, Sonny, Dele and Big Vic. If you look across Poch's entire tenure in that tough budget scenario, it is these 5 players that made the difference to the ones that were already at the club.

I will always keep endorsing that Spurs stop buying volume. Just get Frank the very few players that can make a difference.

That i agree with. TF got some decent signings early on already, but he has to show the club are either to spend on his transfer requirements. Otherwise, it will be club signings

 

[Gutter Boy]

I think we'll always say that Frank inherited a better overall squad than Poch but not a better core.

The interesting part is what comes next. For Poch, what came next was Dier, Toby, Sonny, Dele and Big Vic. If you look across Poch's entire tenure in that tough budget scenario, it is these 5 players that made the difference to the ones that were already at the club.

I will always keep endorsing that Spurs stop buying volume. Just get Frank the very few players that can make a difference.

Saying that Alli and Dier were cheap punts (£9m combined), and Son also arrived in parallel with Njie as a bit of a 'one of these should hopefully work' approach

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I have asked this twice now.... with still no takers.

Other than the two centre halves, which player in our current squad would be snapped up by one of the current top 5 teams if he was made available tomorrow at a decent price specifically to be an immediate first 11 starter?

I think people have already answered you correctly that no one is demanding 5th or better right now. The debate has mostly been around whether these players are capable of playing more progressive football than what Frank is trying to show.

But to answer your question another way, I think we’ve also done absolutely the right thing from a squad building perspective, which is that when we don’t have the most money we need to sign younger players with potential and develop them well. The other top 5 will have different strategies because of their deeper funding. So it’s not likely that, given we’re at the start of a cycle and most of our players have joined in the last couple of years, that they would immediately get into another top 5 team. Because the strategies are different. Doesn’t mean our players are bad or incapable of playing progressive football.

And to answer your point more directly - I think our entire first choice defence + Spence could play for a top 5 team.

I’m unsure that Sanchez is that much better than Vicario. Sanchez probably better with his feet, Vicario better shot stopper.

Palinha came from Bayern Munich. Bergval was wanted by Barcelona. Gray was a 40m teenager. Simons was wanted by Chelsea. Kudus could easily play in a top 5 team.

I could go on but my point is both that this exercise isn’t really easy to do when teams have different strategies, but also that yes I can absolutely imagine a bunch of our players in those teams. By definition they are strong too, and given we have to sign more potential it’s tough to say how many would absolutely start for them right now. But that’s a different argument to saying that this team can’t play more progressive football. And back to the Poch point, he didn’t start with a bunch of players that would have been starting for other top 4 sides. He made them so.