Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[billyiddo]

I'd actually like to see this in stats. I get the impression that these players would mostly play - Vic, Porro, Romero, VDV, Udogie, Palhinha, Bents, Kudus and probably Richi.

Spence has been consistently selected when Udogie couldn't make the line-up and has probably played more over the course of the season.

You would think that when 8 or 9 players play a lot together, then the others would fit around them.

I think the problem is different. I think he is feeling that he has to tweak the system when he changes the personnel, even from the bench. Spence and Udogie are one good example. Bents and Berg another. Kudus and Johnson another. Even Danso for one of the 2 centre halves probably drives tweaks by Frank.

Whoscored.com is a good reference

https://www.whoscored.com/teams/30/show/england-tottenham

 

[Muttley]

Your right with the volume players
Issue as we know is Palhina and bentacur at home has been as creative as a turd being rolled in glitter
But he’s has dabbled in front of them and also in who is accompanying them
Saturdays experiment followed Wednesdays result which I think he would have been pleased with (I was too for what that’s worth)
His biggest fudge up was going with the 8 man defence against Arsenal. That IMO lost him credibility with his players and also some fans saw it as an approach of anything to not lose.
That will not have inspired the players from the start and with the way it’s turned out even less so
So now when he changes things the players are subconsciously maybe even directly doubting the manager
Remember when Frank changed to 3 at the back vs Everton last season..z toxic rot started

Yeah, the Everton game was an eye opener as to how fragile Ange's system was. I was shocked how he failed to move things around. It didn't shine a great light on our manager.

I guess the point is we're around 20 games played (13 league) plus pre-season. A core group of "1st teamers" has been established and there's another group that rotate mostly in the forward roles. In the next 10 games we should now see something more stable. In the 10 after that, even more so.

If nothing changes, then we'll be in trouble if we're hitting 40 games with the same inconsistencies.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah, the Everton game was an eye opener as to how fragile Ange's system was. I was shocked how he failed to move things around. It didn't shine a great light on our manager.

I guess the point is we're around 20 games played (13 league) plus pre-season. A core group of "1st teamers" has been established and there's another group that rotate mostly in the forward roles. In the next 10 games we should now see something more stable. In the 10 after that, even more so.

If nothing changes, then we'll be in trouble if we're hitting 40 games with the same inconsistencies.

We’re on 22 games tomorrow
And be Everton was when Ange went 3 at the back and we got smashed mate. He did change it against his system

 

[thfcsteff]

I think he should get time because I don't think 4-5 months of football is enough to judge a manager. It has nothing to do with his vision or whether I buy in to it or not. I'll have a better idea where I stand on that once I've seen it have some room to breath and develop.

We saw last season in the Europa League that the ends justify the means wrt buy in to vision - we abandoned the romanticism of Ange-ball in the EL while we floundered in the league with it and it is the former that was the strongest argument for giving him a third season after all.

In fairness that's a very reasonable view, and if I can divorce myself long enough from literally hating the way we're building play right now, it is the right one. I am actually uncomfortable having such a sharp feeling, because so many other aspects of Frank are admirable. Further, it's a little out of character for me (Mourinho not withstanding but I didn't want him at all plus it felt like he merked Levy which obviously forced Poch out)...

 

[Muttley]

We’re on 22 games tomorrow
And be Everton was when Ange went 3 at the back and we got smashed mate. He did change it against his system

Problem is, he didn't change it. He tried to play the same Ange-ball, just in a slightly different formation. He didn't get the wing-backs wide and he completed frazzled young Archie's head. He then abandoned it at half time from memory.

When Frank has changed to 3 at the back, he has at least adopted the philosophies that go with the system. Just like Poch did when he put Dier to the right of Toby and got Trips hugging the touch line. Ditto when Dele dismantled Conte's league winning Chelsea's team in 2017.

 

[thfcsteff]

Very much agree with your last paragraph in particular. And I think I’d be even more bullish on him if he was articulating a vision with greater clarity, so we knew what we were building towards. Otherwise, it kind of is what it is. In possession he talks about crosses. And he talks a lot about being solid as a foundation. The ‘if you don’t take a risk you take a risk’ should be one of those things that excites the fanbase. But because of everything else he says and everything else we’ve seen so far (which whether well executed or not, lines up with what he has said) it feels less than convincing.

I want it to work, he is a good man. I think I’m just a bit annoyed at having a transitional season to get to something that is at best unclear and at worst is ineffective when expected to have most of the possession.

Between us I think we manage to articulate the same united opinion. Appreciate the further clarity.

 

[glasgowspur]

It's time to put this and the whole crowd stuff behind us and move on.
It's a side show, the important issue is our form, and tbh if the manager and players are spending as much time over the crowd as is being made out I'd be very disappointed.
You want to win the crowd over, you'll do by winning games, not showing solidarity in the centre circle.
Spend more time on tactics and training, less time on the reaction of the crowd, do the first and you won't need to worry about the second.
Patience is needed all round, not just us in the crowd but the manager and players, sometimes looks like we are in a rush and working because of it.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Problem is, he didn't change it. He tried to play the same Ange-ball, just in a slightly different formation. He didn't get the wing-backs wide and he completed frazzled young Archie's head. He then abandoned it at half time from memory.

When Frank has changed to 3 at the back, he has at least adopted the philosophies that go with the system. Just like Poch did when he put Dier to the right of Toby and got Trips hugging the touch line. Ditto when Dele dismantled Conte's league winning Chelsea's team in 2017.

Mate
We played it twice haven’t we
Once in the super cup which was good but we know psg were just off the beach
And vs arsenal when we were so bad they played like they could go on the beach and still win

 

[glorygloryeze]

Gabriel Heinze
Chris Coleman
And....Kevin Lasagna as player manager (real player!)

That list is about as reliable as Twitter sauces

Bravo!! Top work Sir

 

[DeanoAustin]

I will never really know [ and i am sure most fans would/do not] IF ange decided to give up the league games in order to concentrate on winning a cup. What i will say winning a trophy gave me one of the best nights i have had for a LONG time as a supporter and i will never forget THAT night.

I was anti Ange from Everton last year and had severe doubts from about October or November of his first season. However, if anyone thinks we were sending our best side out each week for the last 10-12 weeks of the season, you’re not paying attention.

It doesn’t mean Ange threw the games or willingly accepted losses. He simply prioritised the Europa League at the expense of everything else. He picked teams trying to win games but knowing that it wasn’t our best eleven because he wanted them for the Europa League. How anyone can argue otherwise is beyond me.

It was a mad gamble but it did pay off in fairness even if 17th is absolutely unacceptable.

 

[harr1984]

I was anti Ange from Everton last year and had severe doubts from about October or November of his first season. However, if anyone thinks we were sending our best side out each week for the last 10-12 weeks of the season, you’re not paying attention.

It doesn’t mean Ange threw the games or willingly accepted losses. He simply prioritised the Europa League at the expense of everything else. He picked teams trying to win games but knowing that it wasn’t our best eleven because he wanted them for the Europa League. How anyone can argue otherwise is beyond me.

It was a mad gamble but it did pay off in fairness even if 17th is absolutely unacceptable.

This is my big bear about the subject. Keep seeing comments about it - posters saying it's nonsense Ange 'threw games' or 'happy to lose games'. No one ever suggested that but it seems people have repeated it enough to think that was what was being said.

The very simple fact was come the EL knockouts after the most ridiculous injury spell I've ever seen, he chose to rest certain important players for league games and play them in the EL.

Now that doesn't mean Ange wanted to lose every league game, be happy at losing every league game or anything else and nor does it excuse some of the performances - just that he was prioritising the EL playing his best team in those games and it ended up working.

No one ever said that made everything that happened in the league acceptable, but it was clear as day with team selections what the focus was....

 

[veryoldspur]

Well, Frank has come out and said he has the full backing of the club, that normally means he has been told if things don't get better he's out

 

[Fatso Jason]

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[ricky2tricky4city]

It’s 100% paranoia
It’s panic mode
This didn’t work so I’ll try that
The issue is we don’t know what Frank’s plan A is.
I want a flexible coach but not one that’s so flexible he is basically Jelly because that eventually just falls over and loses any flavour
What he probably now knows is he should stick with a team for at 3 games back to back. That would have been novel but it’s even something be didnt do at Brentford either

Aren't we just describing what any coach (not so long ago before scrutiny on steroids came along) would be doing after 13 PL games. ie working out the players and best team/system.

Plus, weren't we all (well many) saying we need to stop keep playing the Paulinha/Bents axis and get more of the creatives in midfield?, the 'chopping and changing' amounts to doing that, plus Spence rotating in for Porro or Udogie (often calked for), and Muani and Simmons being integrated as new signings as normal (the former looking like a positive already).

Yes, ones new expectations can be I want the side to settle down,BUT maybe it's just not there yet. His strongest conclusions so far are more likely to be who isn't good enough or too limited a player (ie Richie/Johnson).

And he could be making changes because of the exact same reason we wanted them....what he is seeing on the field he's not particularly happy with. He's looking for match ups that work and for things (just anything) to click.

 

[braineclipse]

Just watched Frank's presser today.

First of all, the amount of pressers these managers have to do is ludicrous. Ludicrous!

Secondly, I have to say I thought he handled every single question with honesty, calm, grace, and no equivocation. He is generally great with the media.

Thirdly, he made it very clear in response to one question regarding style that he is not going to be wedded to one specific style, and that he will continue to pursue his beliefs/approach to matches which involves a lot of 'opposition mitigation' as opposed to 'we are who we are'.

Fourthly, he did make a decent point about the compression of matches not giving him and his staff much time between games right now to work on things.

Finally, it reinforced my overriding thought that support of Thomas Frank should be there as long as he is our manager, yet questions need to be asked. And the main one (again IMO) is IF you believe he deserves time, then you must be aligned to his vision. And that vision looks to me to be creating a better version of the type of football he is having us play now. My personal dilemma remains the fact that I do not like or enjoy said-style, and I also do not believe he can 'upscale' to the levels I believe a Spurs manager should look to be at.

I agree with you Steff. I want to see him given time, but we also need to see improvements at some point.

On compression of games for sure he has a point. I said back when we went from a game a week early on to two games a week that this is where the season as it mostly is starts, a much greater test for Frank, the coaches and players. Injuries, rotation, less time on the training ground.

I think I have a decent understanding of the challenges he's up against now. And the pressure on him is only increasing with every disappointing performance and result, rightly or wrongly it will.

But this is also his bed to lie in imo. If I knew there would be limited time to work on things now he knew. He chose to focus mostly on defensive solidity and set pieces from the moment he walked in the door. He's the one who chose not to focus on our possession game as much when we had time to work on that, seeing defensive solidity and set pieces as more important.

It is imo also rather predictable that if you try to work on improving our possession game in the middle of the season with two games a week that will be difficult and mistakes will be made leading to that defensive solidity crumbling to some extent at least. That's the challenge he chose to have.

Then again I have a pretty clear preference that how you actually want to play longer term is how you mostly try to play short term, at least for a club of our size.

 

[thfcsteff]

Aren't we just describing what any coach (not so long ago before scrutiny on steroids came along) would be doing after 13 PL games. ie working out the players and best team/system.

Plus, weren't we all (well many) saying we need to stop keep playing the Paulinha/Bents axis and get more of the creatives in midfield?, the 'chopping and changing' amounts to doing that, plus Spence rotating in for Porro or Udogie (often calked for), and Muani and Simmons being integrated as new signings as normal (the former looking like a positive already).

Yes, ones new expectations can be I want the side to settle down,BUT maybe it's just not there yet. His strongest conclusions so far are more likely to be who isn't good enough or too limited a player (ie Richie/Johnson).

And he could be making changes because of the exact same reason we wanted them....what he is seeing on the field he's not particularly happy with. He's looking for match ups that work and for things (just anything) to click.

This feels very different to me mate.

 

[Muttley]

It is imo also rather predictable that if you try to work on improving our possession game in the middle of the season with two games a week that will be difficult and mistakes will be made leading to that defensive solidity crumbling to some extent at least. That's the challenge he chose to have.

This is the bit that is the mystery to me. When games come thick and fast you're clearly going to remove some of the physical conditioning work and focus instead on tactically prepping for the matches. You could argue that could be a great time to focus on the possession side of the game.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This is my big bear about the subject. Keep seeing comments about it - posters saying it's nonsense Ange 'threw games' or 'happy to lose games'. No one ever suggested that but it seems people have repeated it enough to think that was what was being said.

The very simple fact was come the EL knockouts after the most ridiculous injury spell I've ever seen, he chose to rest certain important players for league games and play them in the EL.

Now that doesn't mean Ange wanted to lose every league game, be happy at losing every league game or anything else and nor does it excuse some of the performances - just that he was prioritising the EL playing his best team in those games and it ended up working.

No one ever said that made everything that happened in the league acceptable, but it was clear as day with team selections what the focus was....

Well he did rest players for league games which shows he prioritised the cup
The players all’s knew it too and it was talked about in January. It’s part of the documentary work they did on the run to the cup that Ben Haines talked about recently.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Aren't we just describing what any coach (not so long ago before scrutiny on steroids came along) would be doing after 13 PL games. ie working out the players and best team/system.

Plus, weren't we all (well many) saying we need to stop keep playing the Paulinha/Bents axis and get more of the creatives in midfield?, the 'chopping and changing' amounts to doing that, plus Spence rotating in for Porro or Udogie (often calked for), and Muani and Simmons being integrated as new signings as normal (the former looking like a positive already).

Yes, ones new expectations can be I want the side to settle down,BUT maybe it's just not there yet. His strongest conclusions so far are more likely to be who isn't good enough or too limited a player (ie Richie/Johnson).

And he could be making changes because of the exact same reason we wanted them....what he is seeing on the field he's not particularly happy with. He's looking for match ups that work and for things (just anything) to click.

I don’t agree
Most coaches I’ve seen at any club come in and start with their set way
Then they experiment
What we have seen is the team changing in many ways game to game
Would make sense if we have loads of injuries to the squad that he had from day 1, but that’s not really happened (apart from losing Kudus for 3 games)
I’m happy for someone to tell me this was his day 1 plan, to play a certain way and build on it. I’d love to hear that TBH because that may give me some confidence that there is a plan

 

[monkeybarry]

Bravo!! Top work Sir

Cheers!
Heinze and Coleman are my own work.
Lasagna was a Google job.