Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Bedfordspurs]

I appreciate the well argued point of view here, I must say in the spirit of debate I disagree with this idea that the squad quality has been reduced to the point whereby we have to play the style of football that we are seeing, I think our players are better than you give them credit for, and I think we see what we see because this is what Frank wants.

I also say this as someone who believes there is a fairly good chance we benefit from Frank’s early season decisions to have a good second half of the year,

But the reason I disagree is because we’ve seen managers play ‘good football’ with Championship clubs. The old era of Rodgers and Martinez. Maresca with Leicester. In fact if Maresca was our manager with the exact same squad we have now, the style of football would be very different, and the identity would be a lot clearer. I’m not even saying this is a good or a bad thing, because I believe that Frank’s whole ideal state is to sometimes look fluid, sometimes counter, sometimes be hard to break down depending on the game state and context of the opponents. And so I think the reason we’re seeing what we’re seeing is that this method hasn’t fully clicked for the squad yet, as they’re unwinding a lot of their programming from Ange, who had a wildly different view on things.

But I just don’t see how our players are supposedly so lacking in quality that they have to play a more attritional style. What we see is what Frank wants, it is clear from decision making, pass maps etc that this is what he wants. But another manager would go about building this squad in a very different way.

There not players who are gonna win the league
The vast majority are better than the players in teams above them
The key with the teams above us is they look like they know what they are meant to do …. And most players seem really invested in their teams too

 

[Mikey10]

There not players who are gonna win the league
The vast majority are better than the players in teams above them
The key with the teams above us is they look like they know what they are meant to do …. And most players seem really invested in their teams too

I tend to agree with Dan Kilpatruck and Jack Pitt-Brooke on today’s LWOS: that we have a bottom end of mid-table squad, and an ownership who have turned us into the Man United of the south - still considered to be ‘a big 6’ club but with a squad which places us nowhere near that level. Also agree with them that there is no silver bullet answer as the problems are deep-seated and will likely take years to begin to solve, no matter which manager is in charge.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

There not players who are gonna win the league
The vast majority are better than the players in teams above them
The key with the teams above us is they look like they know what they are meant to do …. And most players seem really invested in their teams too

Agreed, I’m interested to wait until the end of the season to see if we start consistently seeing what Frank wants executed well, but this idea that the squad is bad is just nuts to me.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I tend to agree with Dan Kilpatruck and Jack Pitt-Brooke on today’s LWOS: that we have a bottom end of mid-table squad, and an ownership who have turned us into the Man United of the south - still considered to be ‘a big 6’ club but with a squad which places us nowhere near that level. Also agree with them that there is no silver bullet answer as the problems are deep-seated and will likely take years to begin to solve, no matter which manager is in charge.

A bottom end of mid table squad?? Did they really say that? I’ll try and have a listen but that also seems insane to me.

I think it’s worth reminding we finished 5th with a much worse squad a year before winning a European trophy. I agree that things will take time and I’m willing to see if by the end of the season we are consistently getting what Frank wants. But to write these players off right now at the beginning of the transition to Frank as bottom end of mid table I think is completely ridiculous.

 

[Rafa87]

In terms of the quality of the squad he has at his disposal, if we are meant to be a top six club, which of our players do we think the others in that top six bracket would actually take off us if they wanted to?

I think VDV would definitely have takers, I think Romero would (but less than VDV in my view), some of the young players we have might get picked up as prospects, but genuinely which other players do we have that we think the teams who we hope we are in direct competition with would want? I believe Udogie was linked to City a season or two ago, but I imagine injuries play a part in that decision being made.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agreed, I’m interested to wait until the end of the season to see if we start consistently seeing what Frank wants executed well, but this idea that the squad is bad is just nuts to me.

What does he want?
Most managers show that so fans can see and it’s clear from the players too

 

[Legohamster]

In terms of the quality of the squad he has at his disposal, if we are meant to be a top six club, which of our players do we think the others in that top six bracket would actually take off us if they wanted to?

I think VDV would definitely have takers, I think Romero would (but less than VDV in my view), some of the young players we have might get picked up as prospects, but genuinely which other players do we have that we think the teams who we hope we are in direct competition with would want? I believe Udogie was linked to City a season or two ago, but I imagine injuries play a part in that decision being made.

If everyone is fit, VDV/Kulu/Romero maybe/Udogie maybe

Then they might take a punt on Berg/Gray

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A bottom end of mid table squad?? Did they really say that? I’ll try and have a listen but that also seems insane to me.

I think it’s worth reminding we finished 5th with a much worse squad a year before winning a European trophy. I agree that things will take time and I’m willing to see if by the end of the season we are consistently getting what Frank wants. But to write these players off right now at the beginning of the transition to Frank as bottom end of mid table I think is completely ridiculous.

None of the pundits thought the players were that bad at the start of the seaosn
Don’t remember fans saying it either
And yeah there are always players singled out and everyone can be improved upon
But it’s very revisionary imo
The one thing that’s new to the team is the manager and coaching staff

 

[Bedfordspurs]

In terms of the quality of the squad he has at his disposal, if we are meant to be a top six club, which of our players do we think the others in that top six bracket would actually take off us if they wanted to?

I think VDV would definitely have takers, I think Romero would (but less than VDV in my view), some of the young players we have might get picked up as prospects, but genuinely which other players do we have that we think the teams who we hope we are in direct competition with would want? I believe Udogie was linked to City a season or two ago, but I imagine injuries play a part in that decision being made.

Well I think Sunderland would take a lot of our players
And they also signed many in the summer to integrate into a new league
Being blunt… we had 9 players be a match to 11 Liverpool players on Saturday.

 

[harr1984]

None of the pundits thought the players were that bad at the start of the seaosn
Don’t remember fans saying it either
And yeah there are always players singled out and everyone can be improved upon
But it’s very revisionary imo
The one thing that’s new to the team is the manager and coaching staff

All of a sudden last season is looking a better and better accomplishment - Go through the most ridiculous injury crisis, win the Europa League and finish 17th with a lower mid table squad (a weaker squad than that last season)?

I've said it before but it's funny how last season it was a top 6-8 squad, now all of a sudden having acquired some more talent we'd apparently do well to finish top half. They look worse when they are playing badly, and a lot of that has to fall on the manager like it or not who apparently is great at improving players. We all know the squad needs improving - Let's see where we are come the end of the season, but a lower mid table squad this is not....

 

[SpurMeUp]

Am I missing a pattern of play, beyond the enforced 'counter' tactice with 10 men which basically meant we had no de facto 10 in Simons?
It is possible to have enjoyed the fight of the performance, enjoyed the energy of the chaos, feel sorry for the team and Frank, and still recognise we were still hard to fathom in terms of style; again, ciorcumstances put paid to us seeing what the performance in full would've yielded?
If you're suggesting that this sort of performance is what I want to see more of? In terms of spirit, yes. I terms of deployment? No.

Is fight part of 'style of play' then maybe you can tick off a little of your wants there.

I woudl suggest that much of the rest of 'style of play' is simply the side gelling and passing and moving better. And of course scoring more and winning.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

All of a sudden last season is looking a better and better accomplishment - Go through the most ridiculous injury crisis, win the Europa League and finish 17th with a lower mid table squad (a weaker squad than that last season)?

I've said it before but it's funny how last season it was a top 6-8 squad, now all of a sudden having acquired some more talent we'd apparently do well to finish top half. They look worse when they are playing badly, and a lot of that has to fall on the manager like it or not who apparently is great at improving players. We all know the squad needs improving - Let's see where we are come the end of the season, but a lower mid table squad this is not....

I don’t think we have a world beaters
I don’t think we have a squad on par with Leeds though… ours is better
I really liked Frank at Brentford for what he did there. Actually did some research on how he okayed in April time (joys of gardening leave) and was impressed with how his team got promoted
Didnt really look at recent prem form as we know they have been comfortable most of the time
I also fully expected him to have us organised and motivated… fully aware we may have bumps on the road
But we don’t look organised at all
Motivation seems the lowest I’ve seen in some time
Form is on par with the year we got relegated
We’re desperately waiting on the injured saviours to get us back up the table but they are a long way odd returning
And all the new players are clearly brick along with the ones who were here already
Players who are good enough to play for top international sides aren’t actually very good it seems (and I think international football is a low bar)

And as an aside we don’t have any players to really invest in (huge issue for me). No youth near the squad and senior players who rarely look happy to be here

 

[Mikey10]

I think it’s worth reminding we finished 5th with a much worse squad a year before winning a European trophy.

We had Son still playing well and we had more creativity in the side. I’m not sure the squad now is better than it was then. We certainly had no European football to worry about. And we had a big drop off in the second half of that season which then largely carried into the next.

That was part of their argument; at what point does a club accept that its league position is actually a representation of the quality (or lack off) on the pitch? Two years into poor league form, does that not begin to send a pretty clear message?

Anyway, it’s worth a listen if you get time.

None of the pundits thought the players were that bad at the start of the seaosn
Don’t remember fans saying it either

I suppose no one knew then that we’d still be without our three main creative outlets at Christmas. I do remember plenty saying that Maddison being injured in pre-season could have a big impact, both on here and in the media.

 

[Rafa87]

Well I think Sunderland would take a lot of our players
And they also signed many in the summer to integrate into a new league
Being blunt… we had 9 players be a match to 11 Liverpool players on Saturday.

Well, yeah.

Sorry I should have been clearer, the ‘big six’ sides. Which players would City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, United want? Who makes Villas first eleven? Or Newcastles?

You’re right, we did give Liverpool a game whilst they’re in a horrendous run of form and despite us having 9 men. Albeit we had ten for over 80 mins, but still giving them a game with ten men is creditable.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Well, yeah.

Sorry I should have been clearer, the ‘big six’ sides. Which players would City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, United want? Who makes Villas first eleven? Or Newcastles?

You’re right, we did give Liverpool a game whilst they’re in a horrendous run of form and despite us having 9 men. Albeit we had ten for over 80 mins, but still giving them a game with ten men is creditable.

Hey I think it’s always subjective who’d is what it’s a daft argument… and one that others fans have at other clubs too by the way.

Let me flip it …
Why didn’t Chelsea or United take Frank as their manager when he interviewed and why did we?
What manager at any team above us wouldn’t you take?

 

[Rafa87]

Hey I think it’s always subjective who’d is what it’s a daft argument… and one that others fans have at other clubs too by the way.

Let me flip it …
Why didn’t Chelsea or United take Frank as their manager when he interviewed and why did we?
What manager at any team above us wouldn’t you take?

I’m actually just generally asking the question, I like Frank, is he right for us? I don’t know.

Where I used to post, it was the night of that Bournemouth away game with Ange as manager when people were discussing the list of people that at the time were linked to us (Frank, Silva, and one other prem manager who escapes me at the moment) plus I think there were rumours of the Porto manager or similar. At the time I said I liked Frank, but that the appointment gave me vibes of Nuno - not in that I think they are of similar quality or style, just that I could see it going the same way. At the time I actually said I would give Silva a go out of those linked, it was an uninspiring list.

I think Frank hasn’t had a great start, and to be honest I find it a bit bizarre how we jump from performances like the one against PSG in the Super Cup, and the rubbish we have seen lately. I think k at some point we have to give someone time, is that Frank? I honestly don’t know either way, but I do feel that there are bigger issues, deeply ingrained in the club, that if we got rid of him, a Glasner, an Iraola.. I think they would go mostly the same way.

I’m just trying to work out others views of the squad as I wonder if I’m looking at it harshly. I started off by thinking we needed to rebuild a fair bit, get the players playing with some organisation, actually have a plan b, and hopefully have a manager who I actually found likeable in interviews. How much we’ve achieved all of that has been done to death I guess (except the latter, I think we all fairly unanimously like Frank the person).

I just think we’ve been in a downward trajectory for many years now, recruitment has been poor, and we just give up on things quickly. I guess really I’m actually trying to work out, out loud, how this project actually goes from here - but I still feel like he needs time, someone does at some point. I just can’t get on board (currently) with this idea that someone comes in and immediately we’re a much better side. I’m just not seeing it in a lot of these players.

I’m also not fussed Frank hasn’t won anything, Poch hadn’t either. Whilst I’m not saying Frank is Pochs level, I just mean I’ll judge him on what I see, to be honest, I’m not seeing anything great across the club right now, and the worst bit is I honestly don’t think most of this group of players care.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I’m actually just generally asking the question, I like Frank, is he right for us? I don’t know.

Where I used to post, it was the night of that Bournemouth away game with Ange as manager when people were discussing the list of people that at the time were linked to us (Frank, Silva, and one other prem manager who escapes me at the moment) plus I think there were rumours of the Porto manager or similar. At the time I said I liked Frank, but that the appointment gave me vibes of Nuno - not in that I think they are of similar quality or style, just that I could see it going the same way. At the time I actually said I would give Silva a go out of those linked, it was an uninspiring list.

I think Frank hasn’t had a great start, and to be honest I find it a bit bizarre how we jump from performances like the one against PSG in the Super Cup, and the rubbish we have seen lately. I think k at some point we have to give someone time, is that Frank? I honestly don’t know either way, but I do feel that there are bigger issues, deeply ingrained in the club, that if we got rid of him, a Glasner, an Iraola.. I think they would go mostly the same way.

I’m just trying to work out others views of the squad as I wonder if I’m looking at it harshly. I started off by thinking we needed to rebuild a fair bit, get the players playing with some organisation, actually have a plan b, and hopefully have a manager who I actually found likeable in interviews. How much we’ve achieved all of that has been done to death I guess (except the latter, I think we all fairly unanimously like Frank the person).

I just think we’ve been in a downward trajectory for many years now, recruitment has been poor, and we just give up on things quickly. I guess really I’m actually trying to work out, out loud, how this project actually goes from here - but I still feel like he needs time, someone does at some point. I just can’t get on board (currently) with this idea that someone comes in and immediately we’re a much better side. I’m just not seeing it in a lot of these players.

I’m also not fussed Frank hasn’t won anything, Poch hadn’t either. Whilst I’m not saying Frank is Pochs level, I just mean I’ll judge him on what I see, to be honest, I’m not seeing anything great across the club right now, and the worst bit is I honestly don’t think most of this group of players care.

What I’ll say about the player is, in the main, they are first or second choice for their countries to a man … and we’re not talking low ranked countries
I believe nearly all the squad will be playing some form of international comp this summer apart form the under 21 players
I agree I don’t see anything great across the club other than the sausage rolls in the stadium which are great
But of the plan is to back Frank he will need a LOT of players because even the ones he has signed don’t look like they want to play his football