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The youth players/on-loan thread 2014-2015
- Thread starter Danishfurniturelover
- Start date
All true.
But, for me, the key fact here is that Winks will be playing for Mark Warburton. And that makes all the difference, IMO. I have absolute confidence that Warburton will do right by our player.
Having the right manager in charge of a loanee's club is far more important, IMO, than that club's location or its level (within reason).
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
His bread is cr*p
Cochise
Steve Carr
A lot of talk is going on at the moment about bringing more goals into the side with a player who can work with or around Kane. Many names have been listed with the most high profile being Anthony Martial from Monaco, however there have also been the likes of Jay Rodriguez, Timo Werner, Clinton N'jie and Saido Berahino linked in the last six months. There does seem to be a certain type of player here that we are looking for, a direct goal grabbing wideman who can perhaps play as a makeshift #9 when needed.
This is where the discussion becomes about our youth and why I thought I'd bring this question into here instead of the transfer section. Is Nathan Oduwa the player that could do that job for us in the next few years?? From the brief highlights reel that exists of him shows that he could be that player. Is he too far away still or is this season a good one for us to start bringing him on in games against lesser competition (early round cup games etc).
This is where the discussion becomes about our youth and why I thought I'd bring this question into here instead of the transfer section. Is Nathan Oduwa the player that could do that job for us in the next few years?? From the brief highlights reel that exists of him shows that he could be that player. Is he too far away still or is this season a good one for us to start bringing him on in games against lesser competition (early round cup games etc).
I suspect that he's more likely to be sent out on loan but, as I've just written on the winger thread in the Transfer Rumour section, I think he could do a good job for us in the Europa League and League Cup. I'd say that there's still a bit of a question mark over the consistency of his end product. So probably not ready for much by way of Premier League exposure yet. Even so, a winger with his great pace and ability to beat a player with sheer skill can cause sufficient havoc and doubt in an opposition defence to materially affect the outcome of a game even if his end product is variable.
Last season wasn't a great one for him. Was out injured for a long time and then had a loan spell at Luton just as they lost form. He consequently played comparatively little. So he'll have to show a lot in pre season if he's to be considered first team squad material. As I said, a loan seems more likely.
I
indianspur
Guest
Yoof, you seem to be a bit ITK on the youth side of things. Do you know how the club feel about letting Reece Oxford slip through our fingers? Disappointed, or just one of those things that can happen
Yoof
Tony Parks
I suspect more the latter, maybe we'll be disappointed if he ends up being the next Rio Ferdinand but we're a long way off that. I always think it's harsh when these kind of things crop up(no matter the club) as predicting how a 12 year old will progress is an incredibly difficult task and a lot of luck is involved - we laugh at Arsenal letting Kane go but we did the same before getting him back later on. The thing I'll say with Oxford though is that West Ham are pandering to him so much and this results in an elevated opinion of him, I've watched him a few times and he's a decent talent but no more and no less at this stage. Spurs would never let a young player call the shots and we try to keep the spotlight off them as much as possible, from what I hear the club were very unimpressed with Sherwood when he wrote a piece on Marcus Edwards last year for example.
I
indianspur
Guest
cheers for that. Time will tell if he goes on to do well. Anyway we seem to have plenty of our own talent coming through to look forward to so I suppose one slipping through the net is nothing to cry about.
Denmark Spur
Michael Carrick
I
indianspur
Guest
i think Poch has high hopes for Winksy
Bullet
Andy Thompson
Sorry if posted months ago, ignore it if you don't like it
Watching the England Under-21s beat their Croatian counterparts in both legs of their European Championship finals play-off, it was clear that technically and tactically, the English boys were superior.
Some people seem to be in denial about it but having worked in development I have always said that we have the players. We just need to have the confidence to play them.
You can see the English inferiority complex everywhere. Even the commentators kept talking up Alen Halilovic, the Croatian teenager who had joined up from the seniors to play the second leg. Our midfielders had much more of an influence on the game.
It is fashionable to knock young English players. Yet that is the fifth Under-21s European Championship on the spin that England have qualified for and while each one was achieved with a different group of players, great credit must go to Gareth Southgate. Look at some of the big teams that did not make it this time, including Spain, France and the Netherlands.
Tom Carroll may be small but he is hugely talented
Over the course of qualification, Harry Kane and Saido Berahino have emerged as two strikers of real potential who complement each other well. I like the look of Liam Moore, and it is no coincidence that he is playing regularly in the Premier League with Leicester City. Luke Shaw was excellent, having come on considerably in the last 12 months.
What does the Under-21s’ qualification teach us as we go back to the Premier League again? That good young English academy footballers can develop into top players if they are given a fair chance in the senior team and have a little faith shown in them.
Tom Carroll, who played both legs of the Under-21s play-off, is a case in point. He was one of the boys who was part of my development squad at Spurs when I was in charge of the young lads at the club. Technically he is very gifted. Physically, as a teenager, he was smaller than a lot of his age group, but in the long term we always knew it would be his ability with the ball that would make him a successful professional.
He has always been referred to as “little Tommy Carroll”, but his physique has never held him back. It was an easy excuse not to play him.
When you set up an academy youth team, you can look at it two ways. One option is to try to win every game. In which case you might pick a boy who is more effective at that point in time than a player like Carroll. That would usually be a bigger, stronger player, one capable of getting around the pitch and imposing himself. Or alternatively you could take the gifted player like Carroll, tell him not to worry about taking risks and treat the result as of secondary importance.
In junior football, I would always take the latter. The results of youth teams do not matter. They were the last thing I was interested in when I asked my coaches for reports. What mattered was how the boys played: who took risks; who looked technically good. It might sound like stating the obvious but eventually, in elite senior football, it is the team with the most technically-accomplished players who win.
England U21 manager Gareth Southgate has talent at his disposal
Of course, you need a mix of sorts and we produced physical players too. But with players like Tom it was about encouraging them to play the ball and not worrying too much about losing it. I remember one first half when Tom gave the ball away so many times, that we just had to make a joke about it at half-time. We need not have worried. His character came though and he was the best player on the pitch in the second half.
He is a sponge for information. The Under-21s qualifying campaign has given him a stage. On loan at Swansea City he has not played as much as he would like this season but if he gets games he will deliver for them. I am on the same Uefa Pro License course as Swansea manager Garry Monk and we have discussed Tom. With games, Tom will develop into the player everyone thinks he can be.
Currently in the academy at Spurs there is a 15-year-old, Marcus Edwards, who is already playing for England Under-17s. He is the kind of player who, as a coach, makes you look forward to walking out on to that pitch in the morning. Everyone in development football has heard of Marcus. He is a gifted technician with a low centre of gravity, who can pass off either foot or dribble past opponents.
When I was at Spurs, I would persuade anyone and everyone at the training ground to come over to see him train. He is a joy to watch. Again, he is the kind of player who might not always get a game. There might be a bigger boy who could be more effective on that given day, but in time Marcus has the potential to be a great player, a make-the-difference footballer. He can win you a game. These are the kind of talented players that we must not neglect.
What pleases me so much about Gareth’s Under-21s is that they have proven a point to so many people – and I have to say it is largely people coming into the English game from overseas – who have a knee-jerk reaction to young English players. They instinctively think they are old school kick-and-rush. Yet, I watched Carroll, Will Hughes and Jake Forster-Caskey in midfield on Tuesday night and Croatia, a good technical side, just could not get near them.
Will Hughes and Co dominated Croatia in midweek
It is taking longer for our young payers to get to the position where they can break into a top professional side. Carroll, for instance, is 22 already. That is why they need their clubs to give them a pathway to the first team. They need to know that if they develop, usually through going on loan, then a chance will be given to them. Otherwise they become frustrated.
After the World Cup finals, I wrote in this column that I believed England have the making of a good young team. The results over this last international break tell a story: two wins for the seniors and the Under-21s; two wins out of three for the Under-20s; three wins for the Under-19s. The players are there. It is up to the English game now to nurture them properly.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...y-just-need-to-be-given-a-chance-9802904.html
Watching the England Under-21s beat their Croatian counterparts in both legs of their European Championship finals play-off, it was clear that technically and tactically, the English boys were superior.
Some people seem to be in denial about it but having worked in development I have always said that we have the players. We just need to have the confidence to play them.
You can see the English inferiority complex everywhere. Even the commentators kept talking up Alen Halilovic, the Croatian teenager who had joined up from the seniors to play the second leg. Our midfielders had much more of an influence on the game.
It is fashionable to knock young English players. Yet that is the fifth Under-21s European Championship on the spin that England have qualified for and while each one was achieved with a different group of players, great credit must go to Gareth Southgate. Look at some of the big teams that did not make it this time, including Spain, France and the Netherlands.
Over the course of qualification, Harry Kane and Saido Berahino have emerged as two strikers of real potential who complement each other well. I like the look of Liam Moore, and it is no coincidence that he is playing regularly in the Premier League with Leicester City. Luke Shaw was excellent, having come on considerably in the last 12 months.
What does the Under-21s’ qualification teach us as we go back to the Premier League again? That good young English academy footballers can develop into top players if they are given a fair chance in the senior team and have a little faith shown in them.
Tom Carroll, who played both legs of the Under-21s play-off, is a case in point. He was one of the boys who was part of my development squad at Spurs when I was in charge of the young lads at the club. Technically he is very gifted. Physically, as a teenager, he was smaller than a lot of his age group, but in the long term we always knew it would be his ability with the ball that would make him a successful professional.
He has always been referred to as “little Tommy Carroll”, but his physique has never held him back. It was an easy excuse not to play him.
When you set up an academy youth team, you can look at it two ways. One option is to try to win every game. In which case you might pick a boy who is more effective at that point in time than a player like Carroll. That would usually be a bigger, stronger player, one capable of getting around the pitch and imposing himself. Or alternatively you could take the gifted player like Carroll, tell him not to worry about taking risks and treat the result as of secondary importance.
In junior football, I would always take the latter. The results of youth teams do not matter. They were the last thing I was interested in when I asked my coaches for reports. What mattered was how the boys played: who took risks; who looked technically good. It might sound like stating the obvious but eventually, in elite senior football, it is the team with the most technically-accomplished players who win.
Of course, you need a mix of sorts and we produced physical players too. But with players like Tom it was about encouraging them to play the ball and not worrying too much about losing it. I remember one first half when Tom gave the ball away so many times, that we just had to make a joke about it at half-time. We need not have worried. His character came though and he was the best player on the pitch in the second half.
He is a sponge for information. The Under-21s qualifying campaign has given him a stage. On loan at Swansea City he has not played as much as he would like this season but if he gets games he will deliver for them. I am on the same Uefa Pro License course as Swansea manager Garry Monk and we have discussed Tom. With games, Tom will develop into the player everyone thinks he can be.
Currently in the academy at Spurs there is a 15-year-old, Marcus Edwards, who is already playing for England Under-17s. He is the kind of player who, as a coach, makes you look forward to walking out on to that pitch in the morning. Everyone in development football has heard of Marcus. He is a gifted technician with a low centre of gravity, who can pass off either foot or dribble past opponents.
When I was at Spurs, I would persuade anyone and everyone at the training ground to come over to see him train. He is a joy to watch. Again, he is the kind of player who might not always get a game. There might be a bigger boy who could be more effective on that given day, but in time Marcus has the potential to be a great player, a make-the-difference footballer. He can win you a game. These are the kind of talented players that we must not neglect.
What pleases me so much about Gareth’s Under-21s is that they have proven a point to so many people – and I have to say it is largely people coming into the English game from overseas – who have a knee-jerk reaction to young English players. They instinctively think they are old school kick-and-rush. Yet, I watched Carroll, Will Hughes and Jake Forster-Caskey in midfield on Tuesday night and Croatia, a good technical side, just could not get near them.
It is taking longer for our young payers to get to the position where they can break into a top professional side. Carroll, for instance, is 22 already. That is why they need their clubs to give them a pathway to the first team. They need to know that if they develop, usually through going on loan, then a chance will be given to them. Otherwise they become frustrated.
After the World Cup finals, I wrote in this column that I believed England have the making of a good young team. The results over this last international break tell a story: two wins for the seniors and the Under-21s; two wins out of three for the Under-20s; three wins for the Under-19s. The players are there. It is up to the English game now to nurture them properly.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...y-just-need-to-be-given-a-chance-9802904.html
Cochise
Steve Carr
Southgate fudged it up imo. He completely undid everything he had been working on prior to the tournament and tried something completely different. The loss of Berahino was pivotal, but he chopped and change the midfield around at a time when it had started to look set.
On a seperate note. CCV needs an age test. No way is he that age with those quads, they are bloody huge.
On a seperate note. CCV needs an age test. No way is he that age with those quads, they are bloody huge.
Yoof
Tony Parks
The u18s were back in training last week and Edwards is there so there's nothing to worry about.
Yoof
Tony Parks
It seems likely that Harry Winks will be going to Rangers on loan. He'll be training with them later this week, or I should say they'll be training with him as they're coming down to Hotspur Way rather than him going up there. On the plus side it's senior football for a big club under a good manager but it's still the Scottish 2nd division, I was hoping he'd get a Championship loan.
Grant Ward is currently training with Rotherham, he did well in League 1 last season so it makes sense for him to step up a league.
Grant Ward is currently training with Rotherham, he did well in League 1 last season so it makes sense for him to step up a league.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Do you think he could get some first team appearances in cup games this coming season? I like his style, he looks like he has that 'pure' touch and control of a natural. He can just go, improvise with the ball and leave the opposition scratching their heads. Too early to compare him to other players. I guess he needs to keep grounded and develop.
Yoof
Tony Parks
I doubt it. Last season Onomah only got 15 minutes in the FA Cup and Winks got 5-10 minutes in the Europa group stage, both of whom are more "1st-team ready" than Edwards. I think it's more reluctance on our part rather than the youngsters not being good/ready enough, I sometimes wonder where Bentaleb would be now if Sherwood hadn't've happened ... probably only just coming off the back of a League 1 loan I suspect.