The Overlap - some interesting comments from Ange

[carl]

And you’ve also just decided it would be a particular way for your own reasons. Why are you more right than me in this?

Based on the last 18 months of his time with us and his time at Forest? Just a guess of course

 

[SteveAWOL]

I think you could argue he's massaging history. My recollection/impression without looking at stats:

1. He started brilliantly with title winning form - Aug 23-Nov 23.
2. We regressed a fair bit as injuries took hold - Nov 23-Feb 24.
3. Our form didn't recover and we took some bad hidings sprinkled with some decent performances - Feb 24 - May 24.
4. We started the league decently - Aug 24 to Nov 24.
5. Injuries took hold and our form dropped - Nov 24 - Jan 25.
6. Our form fell off a cliff completely - Jan 25 - May 25.

Somewhere within that Jan 25 to May 25 time, he clearly started to prioritise the EL because he was leaving out our better players when fit. Micky VdV even commented on it at one point. However, that whole period, IIRC, also coincided with a horrific injury list so I'm not sure at what point he started leaving people out voluntarily.

In league terms, he wasn't a total bust from November 23 IMO because up to November 24 that season, we weren't bad.

FWIW from that “It’s who we are mate” game until the end of his tenure, our PL record was:

16th Won 23 Drawn 9 Lost 34 For 116 Against 117 Dif -1 Points per game 1.18

 

[thfcsteff]

I don't think it's a binary thing with failure or not when it comes to Ange.

Finishing 17th with this club is incompetent in my book. I've never seen any club sink as low as quickly as we have from top 6 finishes to bottom 4-5 teams. Maybe Leeds in the early 00s but that was because, financially, they came apart.

There is an argument, and I believe there is a degree of truth in it, that Ange lowered standards and made losing acceptable at Tottenham. We lost 22 league games last year - that's mind boggling. The trend has continued this year. Lots of people have responsibility for our current predicament and Ange is one of them in my view (albeit not as much responsibility as some of the board, Lange and Frank). The price of the Europa League could be a catastrophic lowering of standards that carried into this season.

Nothing at our mighty club is binary mate

But factually-speaking, no-one can ever say Ange Postecoglu was a 'failure' at Tottenham Hotspur; he won the Europa League. A trophy.
Incompetence? Maybe. That's an opinion and not one I'd agree with but certainly accept as a viewpoint.

The notion that he 'lowered standards' is, IMO, nonsense. The squad was crippled, and not just by his style of play, but also terrible staff recruitment (thanks Munn), and the attrition of over-playing international players which started in covid times and took in a ridiculous World Cup. Ange certainly showed some naivety, but I would argue that non-one could've got anything like he did from last season.

As for the price of the Europa League being a 'lowering of standards'? I'd counter that the TRUE price of the Europa League victory is the absolutye cowardice and 'power-point thinking' that somehow had our board thinking we needed a total reset (i.e. run hard from success because it didn't come from a 'platform' their 'data' said it should've), and the hubristically stupid decision to turf Levy at the END of the transfer window AFTER this 'great rest'. THAT decision as much as any is why we are where we currently are. You want to change the leadership? OK, risky move to do it fast, but at the very least, if you're throwing the hairy bearded baby out after Bilbao, then throw the bathwater out at the same time and give the whole fudging mess a summer to try and find it's feet. Instead, we go conservative cautious on the pitch AND THEN we sack off 25 years of mono-leadership for some 'new method' during the season? macarons. Seriously, fudging macarons!!!!! The same level of macarons which saw them then fudge the manager they'd hired (Frank) by not supporting him in the Jan window, and then sacking him AFTER the window and fudging the next guy in.

I think the 'lowering of standards' came from those middle management ultra-stat-model driven macarons who despite seeing what success tangibly looks like, brick themselves and got too clever about it all both on and off the pitch!

(JAYSUS i've gone off a bit there haven't I hahahahaha...thanks for letting me mate, and as always, offered in the spirit of both discussion and a touch of 'vent' I suppose hahahaha)...

 

[thfcsteff]

He's such a liar. Remember the crap he talked about the ear-cupping he aimed at the fans? Just wanted them to sing up, apparently....
Van de Ven stated categorically that it was he and Romero who pitched the more defensive approach. I know who I believe.

Liar or not he found a way to get them to get to that final and win. Even if he's the biggest trumper on the planet, the fact remains that he found a way to 'flimflam' that squad into winning a European trophy. I understand there is a level of cynicism towards him and contempt for those of us who bought the lines he was feeding, but again, the fact remains he sold those lines to the players and they won the trophy.
Maybe all we need in life is a trumper who makes us believe?!!!!!!!! The human condition part 593 LOL...

 

[thfcsteff]

The narrative being that you think Ange would have worked in the 3rd season because. You think that the circumstances would have magically fitted to make his 3rd season unlike the latter half of his first and the majority of his 2nd. It just doesn't actually fit the events that occurred. I don't see his Nottingham Forest stint as significant but its just more evidence that his MO was unchanged.

I get it that you want to be hopeful, but your reasoning is very selective. You'be decided it would have been a particular way just because you wanted it to be that way.

It might have. It might not have. The fact is our pussy fudging board weren't prepared to gamble, despite silver evidence, ther power of hundred of thousands of happy supporters, and a squad who believed. Stop with the Forest stuff, it's a red herring to this discussion and you know it mate.

'...doesn't fit events that occurred'...the LAST event which occurred was winning in Bilbao and the streets of N17 being filled with hundreds of thousands of people. If you believe in narratives, the potential ascension of that narrative was massive. He was absolutely on point to call out 'to dare is to do' because we didn't. I saw people say that if he'd focussed more on the league he might've saved his job by finishing 11th or something; I am sure the thought occured to him, however that would've been the coward's move.

All I conclude on review is he saw, he dared to do, he actually threaded the eye of the needle and did it, and everyone around and above him shat themselves at the sheer volatile unpredicatable nature of the achievement (i.e. it didn't come from a spreadsheet-proven formula) and decided control was more important than momentum.

(I know we will never agree mate but I think Im on a roll as the previous posts here suggest so apologies LOL)

 

[tommysvr]

Have to laugh at the people who continually bring up 7 games at Nottingham Forest, who are still sitting 17th by the way, like it means something.

 

[thfcsteff]

Have to laugh at the people who continually bring up 7 games at Nottingham Forest, who are still sitting 17th by the way, like it means something.

Wellllll, in fairness, some laugh at those who bring up winning the Europa League as 'a thing'!!!!!