The Game Is About Glory Podcast

[Bullet]

Cheers chaps, I enjoyed the pod this week. Improved my mood with your sound reasoning.

It felt to me that we lined up wrong i.e. Johnson is awful on the left, Son is awful through the middle and Deki is awful on the right.
So the players themselves don't believe they will succeed, they all give a half-hearted attempt to do what they've been instructed, but they immediately fail and down tools.
Later, when we had Son left, Richie middle, Johnson right they truly believed and went for it and scored easily, night and day.
So it is a combination of belief and mentality where the forwards know for a fact they can't do it, so we are constantly under pressure.
And watching the MOTD2 highlights at half speed on iPlayer, you can see Biss/Sarr/Bentan all jogging around with such a soft press, no bite, no tackles, just jogging into areas with no belief, utterly drained and half hearted as the game goes against us.

I thought I would take a look back at how Poch started (64 pts) and Mou (69) and Conte (71) for some perspective:

2014-15 5th 64Pts EL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season#League_table Pochettino
2015-16 3rd 70Pts CL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season#League_table Pochettino
2016-17 2nd 86Pts CL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season#League_table Pochettino
2017-18 3rd 77Pts CL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season#League_table Pochettino
2018-19 4th 71Pts CL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season#League_table Pochettino
2019-20 6th 69Pts EL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season#League_table PochMourinho
2020-21 7th 62Pts EL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season#League_table MourinhoMason
2021-22 4th 71Pts CL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021–22_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season#League_table NunoConte
2022-23 8th 60Pts XX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022–23_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season#League_table ConteStelliniMason
2023-24 5th 60Pts*** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023–24_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season#League_table Postecoglu

 

[Mikey10]

Enjoyable pod as always, chaps.

I’m not sure I quite agree with all of the analysis (“There was more intent…they’re good players trying their best” - having watched the build-up to a couple of the Liverpool goals again this morning, there was no intent to close down, and far too many definitely not trying their best!) but interesting to hear the views.

 

[milo]

Enjoyable pod as always, chaps.

I’m not sure I quite agree with all of the analysis (“There was more intent…they’re good players trying their best” - having watched the build-up to a couple of the Liverpool goals again this morning, there was no intent to close down, and far too many definitely not trying their best!) but interesting to hear the views.

I'm not sure that we were saying that. I think that we said we started brightly but dropped off massively after their first goal and that our pressing was off but it wasn't as bad as Chelsea or Saudi Sportswashing Machine

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Cheers chaps, I enjoyed the pod this week. Improved my mood with your sound reasoning.

It felt to me that we lined up wrong i.e. Johnson is awful on the left, Son is awful through the middle and Deki is awful on the right.
So the players themselves don't believe they will succeed, they all give a half-hearted attempt to do what they've been instructed, but they immediately fail and down tools.
Later, when we had Son left, Richie middle, Johnson right they truly believed and went for it and scored easily, night and day.
So it is a combination of belief and mentality where the forwards know for a fact they can't do it, so we are constantly under pressure.
And watching the MOTD2 highlights at half speed on iPlayer, you can see Biss/Sarr/Bentan all jogging around with such a soft press, no bite, no tackles, just jogging into areas with no belief, utterly drained and half hearted as the game goes against us.

Massively agree with this
And I didn’t get how that midfield was meant to work

 

[thfcsteff]

Massively agree with this
And I didn’t get how that midfield was meant to work

I personally think Ange is sussing out who is able and who isn't. As we said, this is beyond the 'whether they're good' discussion - we have really good players - it's about whether we have what he wants in all manners. I personally think we have two who he would like to change out that are great players, try, but simply are not especially suited to this system. Our swuad review will reveal all...

 

[thfcsteff]

Enjoyable pod as always, chaps.

I’m not sure I quite agree with all of the analysis (“There was more intent…they’re good players trying their best” - having watched the build-up to a couple of the Liverpool goals again this morning, there was no intent to close down, and far too many definitely not trying their best!) but interesting to hear the views.

I think this game will have been hugely instructive for Ange. Whether psych or ability, he will have seen yet more definitiveness with regards to who is going to be part of it going forwards. We will probably see a couple of great players leave (if we can get fees) who just don't work very well with what we're trying to do. I

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I personally think Ange is sussing out who is able and who isn't. As we said, this is beyond the 'whether they're good' discussion - we have really good players - it's about whether we have what he wants in all manners. I personally think we have two who he would like to change out that are great players, try, but simply are not especially suited to this system. Our swuad review will reveal all...

It’s why I’ve been saying for ages that son needs to be out
We need players who can play this way
Eric Dier is doing well in Germany but can’t play this way
Others will be the same in sure

 

[thfcsteff]

It’s why I’ve been saying for ages that son needs to be out
We need players who can play this way
Eric Dier is doing well in Germany but can’t play this way
Others will be the same in sure

I think Son absolutely can if played as a squad player and off the left. I don't think he is a guaranteed starter.
Sonny is not a CF. Give him the ball fast and early and I think he absolutely still can. I think there are a couple of others before him TBH; again I'll hold my gunpowder til our squad review, but I'll bet you can guess (and it isn't the obvious like PEH and Sess). I got sick of people calling Dier crap. He has never been anything less than a very good defender, he simply did not fit our system.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think Son absolutely can if played as a squad player and off the left. I don't think he is a guaranteed starter.
Sonny is not a CF. Give him the ball fast and early and I think he absolutely still can. I think there are a couple of others before him TBH; again I'll hold my gunpowder til our squad review, but I'll bet you can guess (and it isn't the obvious like PEH and Sess). I got sick of people calling Dier crap. He has never been anything less than a very good defender, he simply did not fit our system.

Son, even on the left lacks the football brains for it
But we ain’t selling him anyway
I’ve named who I would sell in the transfer thread

 

[thfcsteff]

Son, even on the left lacks the football brains for it
But we ain’t selling him anyway
I’ve named who I would sell in the transfer thread

Honestly, I find this a baffling comment.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Honestly, I find this a baffling comment.

He ain’t smart
He is an instinctive finisher and exceptional at it
He can’t pass well, or control a ball well either, which is nuts when you consider the drilling his dad gave him
So many of his gaols are because he can strike the ball so clean and well
His first touch is so poor that he needs that space to run into
The guys a legend here but his goals come from counter attacking teams mainly. Give him space and he can’t hurt you… mark him and play deep… he is a passenger. We keep the ball now which means it’s play in their third and it dies with Sonny so regularly

 

[thfcsteff]

He ain’t smart
He is an instinctive finisher and exceptional at it
He can’t pass well, or control a ball well either, which is nuts when you consider the drilling his dad gave him
So many of his gaols are because he can strike the ball so clean and well
His first touch is so poor that he needs that space to run into
The guys a legend here but his goals come from counter attacking teams mainly

How do you quantify 'smart'?
As a passer? Is that the only metric of 'smart'?
Are you judging his control on the basis of playing centrally? In which case his control is not great because he has never been a back to goal forward. I would argue that goals such as his Puskas winner, or the one against Chelsea at Wembley show he has tremendous control when running with the ball.
Show me a striker who has scored as many goals as Sonny without having a clean/polished strike.
Again, you're judging his first touch based on a specific type of role.
I think the bit you've missed is that every player who has had the privilege of our shirt since 2015 has enjoyed the alien vision, prowess and worldiness of Harry Kane.
And in that regard, dummies didn't build partnerships with Harry.
I'm enjoying the discussion as we certainly have very different perspectives...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

How do you quantify 'smart'?
As a passer? Is that the only metric of 'smart'?
Are you judging his control on the basis of playing centrally? In which case his control is not great because he has never been a back to goal forward. I would argue that goals such as his Puskas winner, or the one against Chelsea at Wembley show he has tremendous control when running with the ball.
Show me a striker who has scored as many goals as Sonny without having a clean/polished strike.
Again, you're judging his first touch based on a specific type of role.
I think the bit you've missed is that every player who has had the privilege of our shirt since 2015 has enjoyed the alien vision, prowess and worldiness of Harry Kane.
And in that regard, dummies didn't build partnerships with Harry.
I'm enjoying the discussion as we certainly have very different perspectives...

Smart as in where he runs with the ball. The puskas goal was sublime but that was Sonny pushing the ball and running at pace.. he is so quick with the ball. But the space he had to run into was massive
He has scored screamers with better touches
Control as in how he controls a pass. It’s well worth watching how often he takes the ball behind him and then has to adjust. Again with space that’s fine.. in a possession side where the opposition are in front of him he loses it
I did say he strikes the ball so clean so not sure if your agreeing with me or not
Sonny in the right team would have years left in him.
Sonny and Kane was hell of a partnership in a counter attacking team.

 

[thfcsteff]

Smart as in where he runs with the ball. The puskas goal was sublime but that was Sonny pushing the ball and running at pace.. he is so quick with the ball. But the space he had to run into was massive
He has scored screamers with better touches
Control as in how he controls a pass. It’s well worth watching how often he takes the ball behind him and then has to adjust. Again with space that’s fine.. in a possession side where the opposition are in front of him he loses it
I did say he strikes the ball so clean so not sure if your agreeing with me or not
Sonny in the right team would have years left in him.
Sonny and Kane was hell of a partnership in a counter attacking team.

I used the Puskas goal as an example of his ability to control the ball; you had said he has poor first touch, I believe that only to be in context of playing as a CF with back to goal.
He very often makes excellent runs which are not spotted, and when played off the left, often his intelligence leads to space others can exploit. In terms of his intelligence when on the ball, I genuinely think you're wrong.
Your assessment of his control is based on him playing through the middle and with a slower tempo behind him forcing him to have to masquerade as a hold-up CF; in that regard he is not great.
You said many of his goals are because he strike the ball so cleanly; I was pointing out that any good striker does that.
Sonny and Keane were also a great partnership in Poch's team i.e. not counter attacking.
I would like the Sonny I saw for the last 15-20 mins at Anfield. I think if he is rested and rotated properly, he will remain an excellent player.

Just to remind...in 32 PL appearances, 17 goals and 9 assists. A fair few as CF (which we've both agreed is not his best position unless Madders can feed him fast in the channels).
I'm not about to want this player leaving under any circumstances mate...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I used the Puskas goal as an example of his ability to control the ball; you had said he has poor first touch, I believe that only to be in context of playing as a CF with back to goal.
He very often makes excellent runs which are not spotted, and when played off the left, often his intelligence leads to space others can exploit. In terms of his intelligence when on the ball, I genuinely think you're wrong.
Your assessment of his control is based on him playing through the middle and with a slower tempo behind him forcing him to have to masquerade as a hold-up CF; in that regard he is not great.
You said many of his goals are because he strike the ball so cleanly; I was pointing out that any good striker does that.
Sonny and Keane were also a great partnership in Poch's team i.e. not counter attacking.
I would like the Sonny I saw for the last 15-20 mins at Anfield. I think if he is rested and rotated properly, he will remain an excellent player.

Just to remind...in 32 PL appearances, 17 goals and 9 assists. A fair few as CF (which we've both agreed is not his best position unless Madders can feed him fast in the channels).
I'm not about to want this player leaving under any circumstances mate...

We aren’t selling him with an Asian tour lined up

But his goals have come against team that attack us… even his goals playing wide. That’s about 20% of the league now. Everyone else is digging in and parking up
Sonny hasn’t got the tools to contribute in those games.
I also think he is injured again. He went to the asian games with an injury and played every game. I fully expect some news on that later this month will leak out

 

[thfcsteff]

We aren’t selling him with an Asian tour lined up

But his goals have come against team that attack us… even his goals playing wide. That’s about 20% of the league now. Everyone else is digging in and parking up
Sonny hasn’t got the tools to contribute in those games.
I also think he is injured again. He went to the asian games with an injury and played every game. I fully expect some news on that later this month will leak out

Indeed we aren't selling him. Yes, he has certainly been knackered again by international duties. Again, I think when he is playing on the left, he still has great tools providing we don't play slowly. Slowing down the pace of our game kills several players in our system.
Good conversation, I generally disagree with you so am going to sign off mate...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Indeed we aren't selling him. Yes, he has certainly been knackered again by international duties. Again, I think when he is playing on the left, he still has great tools providing we don't play slowly. Slowing down the pace of our game kills several players in our system.
Good conversation, I generally disagree with you so am going to sign off mate...

That’s fine
It’s a discussion and we don’t always have to agree
I did agree fully with the comment about Liverpool fans.. if only
The cult works well for them

 

[Bullet]

I agree Son isn't an intelligent player. He is brilliant when playing instinctively, but he doesn't have the nous that some players have. He could do more than he does, with more guile.
He thrives from quick early balls to run onto; better to play the early ball 10 times and have it cut out or offside 8 times and give Son 2 chances, than play 10 balls into his feet which are guaranteed failures.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I agree Son isn't an intelligent player. He is brilliant when playing instinctively, but he doesn't have the nous that some players have. He could do more than he does, with more guile.
He thrives from quick early balls to run onto; better to play the early ball 10 times and have it cut out or offside 8 times and give Son 2 chances, than play 10 balls into his feet which are guaranteed failures.

And you don’t have room to pass into when your always on the front foot
It’s only against city where we’re not and sons record against them is exceptional

 

[thfcsteff]

I agree Son isn't an intelligent player. He is brilliant when playing instinctively, but he doesn't have the nous that some players have. He could do more than he does, with more guile.
He thrives from quick early balls to run onto; better to play the early ball 10 times and have it cut out or offside 8 times and give Son 2 chances, than play 10 balls into his feet which are guaranteed failures.

I think you're erroneous with that comment, as I did with Bedford.
I also have to say that saying Son needs more 'guile' given the fact he is either usually double-marked or playing through the middle is a very odd statement...unless you want him to go more 'dark arts'?

Here are a couple of pieces to read. Particularly note in The Guardian one to Chris Ramsey.

Factually, it is impossible to say that unequivocally, Son has scored all his goals/made all his assists via one specific repeat action. Especially as he has played under several different managerial styles.

Finally, you simply don't have the career or consistency of goals/assists Son has without being an 'intelligent player' in the true sense of that phrase. 300 PL appearances, 166 wins, 120 goals, and 61 assists doesn't happen without 'football intelligence' or guile..just for fun, his CL record is 55 played, 19 assists and 5 goals, while his FA Cup record is 28 games, 14 goals and 11 assists.


https://medium.com/@jackstacey8765/...f-heung-min-son-a-high-iq-player-4638cbdd401e

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-football-intelligence-can-players-develop-it