The Defensive Midfielder

[Yiddo]

Are people actually having a debate as to whether Dier is a DM or not? These stupid statistics / heat maps have made arguments alot more ridiculous now. If he is defending the ball infront of the defence he is a DM its as simple as that.

 

[milo]

The other variable I would like to see is how the partner of the DM plays. For example, is the double pivot still in operation with both CMs sharing equal attacking and defensive duties or is Dier's partner freer to play a more attacking role knowing there is a dedicated DM behind him?

I suspect the heat maps of a combined Dier and Alli would show a difference to a Mason and Bentaleb combo.

I agree, that'd be interesting.

Do you think that it would be better to have the two combined into one heatmap or a separate one for each of the players playing at the base of midfield?

I could pull those out for the same games but it would have to wait until the weekend.

 

[milo]

Are people actually having a debate as to whether Dier is a DM or not? These stupid statistics / heat maps have made arguments alot more ridiculous now. If he is defending the ball infront of the defence he is a DM its as simple as that.

There was a debate about whether his role was different to that played by Bentaleb and Mason last season.

The anonymised heatmaps are an attempt to test whether people could differentiate between the three players by the positions they take up on the pitch and where on the pitch they touch the ball.

If he is defending the ball in front of the defence and that is a change from our tactics last season, it should be easy to spot on the anonymised heatmaps.

 

[scaramanga]

Here's another interesting set of stats:

No prizes for guessing which is which.

Edit:
Sorry, obviously needed to mention that these are Dier and Alli

 

[StephenH]

What was the question?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Here's another interesting set of stats:

No prizes for guessing which is which.

Edit:
Sorry, obviously needed to mention that these are Dier and Alli

Well Dier has had higher completion stats all season and Alli has made more interceptions as he should being the more coward facing one of the two. I'd also expect the more forward playing one to make less accurate passes as their in a area that has more defenders from the opposition

What we should focus on is the fact that we're gonna be a world class pairing together and balance each other's play immensely

 

[billyiddo]

Are people actually having a debate as to whether Dier is a DM or not? These stupid statistics / heat maps have made arguments alot more ridiculous now. If he is defending the ball infront of the defence he is a DM its as simple as that.

By that criteria we have a rotating DM as at any point during the game one of any player outside of the defence will be doing that job

 

[milo]

Well Dier has had higher completion stats all season and Alli has made more interceptions as he should being the more coward facing one of the two. I'd also expect the more forward playing one to make less accurate passes as their in a area that has more defenders from the opposition

What we should focus on is the fact that we're gonna be a world class pairing together and balance each other's play immensely

Football parlance moves so quickly these days that it is difficult to keep up. What is a coward facing position?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Football parlance moves so quickly these days that it is difficult to keep up. What is a coward facing position?

Forward

 

[milo]

Forward

Figures

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Figures

Indeed

 

[scaramanga]

By that criteria we have a rotating DM as at any point during the game one of any player outside of the defence will be doing that job

Pretty much this.

The system we're playing is based on all midfielders being able to both defend and pass/create. That means we're not relying on a dedicated defensive midfielder which would restrict our ability to keep the ball and to attack properly.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Pretty much this.

The system we're playing is based on all midfielders being able to both defend and pass/create. That means we're not relying on a dedicated defensive midfielder which would restrict our ability to keep the ball and to attack properly.

That sounds awful like what Tim Sherwood suggested with his 'I don't like holding midfielders' comment.

 

[scaramanga]

That sounds awful like what Tim Sherwood suggested with his 'I don't like holding midfielders' comment.

Captain Bellend doesn't want to keep possession - you can see that from how his teams play.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Captain Bellend doesn't want to keep possession - you can see that from how his teams play.

I was referring more to the 'all midfielders being able to defend and pass/create' bit which is obviously the basics of the point he was making.

 

[parklane1]

I don't think that anyone has said that we should disregard all observation, just that we should be aware that our eyes and memory lie to us.

I know that you are not the biggest fan of stats (or at least stat bores) but are there any readily available stats that you think would demonstrate that Dier is currently playing the role that you say he is? I am happy to pull them out for the same games and post them in anonymised form.

Hi mate, sorry about the delay in answering but I have been out all day. Firstly I will say that I have no problem with the use of heat maps and I have always considered your posts to be well thought and fair.



As for liking stats/ disliking stats all I can say is that for the best part of my working life as a FA coach I dealt with stats in football most days so I do not think they are bad at all ( you are right about the stat bores though). What we used stats for was as a tool to help us do our jobs and work out systems and such for the young players we were mostly involved with. However we used them as a tool to help but they very rarely tell the whole/true story so even though we worked with them they were not the be all and end all.



Unfortuately they are some fans ( and again I do not include you in this) in all sports who think they are the primary thing and never see past them. Fans also get caught up in monikers and shoe boxing players into names and posistions and do not look past that either.As for your offer to find heat maps for me there is no need. Stats are good and very helpful but they are no more then that, I respect people who swear by them because that is their opinion but again having worked with them in football I will also object if I think they think they are the answer and proof of what they are saying.

 

[Pirate55]

I agree, that'd be interesting.

Do you think that it would be better to have the two combined into one heatmap or a separate one for each of the players playing at the base of midfield?

I could pull those out for the same games but it would have to wait until the weekend.

If it would be possible, I would like to see Alli super-imposed on Dier ( ideally in different colours) and Mason super-imposed on Bentaleb ( again, ideally in different colours).

I would expect Alli to be more vertically integrated with Dier ( i.e. Alli in more advanced general positions than Dier), whereas I expect Mason and Bentaleb to be more horizontally integrated ( i.e. more side by side).

I think that would be a very illuminating excercise if you can pull it off. It would also help us all to see if Poch's tactics have changed this year and moved away from the double pivot.

 

[billyiddo]

It would be Interesting to see side by side comparisons of last seasons CM pairing and this seasons - i think you can do it on whoscored, may give it a go

 

[scaramanga]

If it would be possible, I would like to see Alli super-imposed on Dier ( ideally in different colours) and Mason super-imposed on Bentaleb ( again, ideally in different colours).

I would expect Alli to be more vertically integrated with Dier ( i.e. Alli in more advanced general positions than Dier), whereas I expect Mason and Bentaleb to be more horizontally integrated ( i.e. more side by side).

I think that would be a very illuminating excercise if you can pull it off. It would also help us all to see if Poch's tactics have changed this year and moved away from the double pivot.

Would be interesting to see, although I think it would tell us more about the role Alli plays than it does Dier. It seems Dier is playing pretty much the same role as Bentaleb.

My impression is that the improved press allows Alli to push a bit further up.

 

[harr1984]

Pretty much this.

The system we're playing is based on all midfielders being able to both defend and pass/create. That means we're not relying on a dedicated defensive midfielder which would restrict our ability to keep the ball and to attack properly.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I never see Dier really create, and seldom goes that far forward? He always seems to be the one protecting, picking the ball up from deep positions and least likely to make forward runs from what I've seen....