The Defensive Midfielder

[parklane1]

But that is just it. We now have a CM dedicated to defending first and foremost ( i.e. a DM, whether you want to call it a Defensive midfielder or Deep lying midfielder) and bingo we look more solid as a defensive unit.

I agree, I said last season when the debate was going on about our weak CM that some fans get caught up in naming positions. A players who has a defensive mindset ( like Dier, unlike Bentaleb or Mason) can be called a DM but its splitting hairs to keep going on ( like some) who have got hung up on what you call them.

Dier plays the position which offers protection to the back for and used to be called the DM for want of a name, they are some who are rattling their gums to try and be BLOODY awkward and think they know better. You can call him what you want ( if it makes some feel superior) but he plays the role that offers protection to our back four which is something we did not have last season.

 

[billyiddo]

Do you think that you would be able to pick out a Dier heatmap from ones for Bentaleb and Mason if their names were removed?

Compared with last season? I think so, Dier would show up as deeper than the other two.

I think this has all become a matter of semantics - is Dier an old skool blood and thunder DM with no other responsibility than to break up the opposition play? No, is he a CM who takes the lions share of the defensive duties whilst his partner takes the attacking duties? In my mind yes, and it's a clear change from last season where both CMs had an even share of duties

 

[scaramanga]

But that is just it. We now have a CM dedicated to defending first and foremost ( i.e. a DM, whether you want to call it a Defensive midfielder or Deep lying midfielder) and bingo we look more solid as a defensive unit.

I would expect a midfielder dedicated to defending to make some tackles and interceptions. I'd also expect them to be less adventurous with the ball.

If he's dedicated to defending then he's not very good at it or he's lazy. Far more likely that nobody in our midfield is tasked with being a dedicated defensive player.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't think so. To me people thin Dier is more defensive because of his build and because he goes to ground more often. The role he plays is identical to the other 3. Look at his beautiful through ball for Kane against Spain for an example of him getting up-and-around the opponent's box too.

I made a point of watch Dier and Mason's positioning against Anderlecht. It was still very much 1 go, 1 stay, rather than designated back and forwards.

I'm not sure I would use clips of Dier for England to prove anything.... I have no idea what sort of tactics Roy wants to play (and from the performance against Spain I'm not sure that Roy does either!)

 

[Finney Is Back]

I would expect a midfielder dedicated to defending to make some tackles and interceptions. I'd also expect them to be less adventurous with the ball.

Does Dier not usually make tackles and interceptions then? Against Arsenal he didn't seem to make many (any?) but that was often because Arsenal weren't playing through the middle at all, they were either going wide or by-passing the midfield and going long. I would imagine he has made his far share of tackles in our other games though?

 

[GrimsbyYid]

There is more to being. Defensive midfielder than tackles. It is about protection. It is about being strong/aggressive. It is bout primarily sitting in front of the back 4. It is about helping out the centre backs. Usually includes keeping play simple in the passing.

AS for heat maps... Really? fudge me. No, maybe we wouldn't be able to tell, they may have taken up the same positions as Dier but because they aren't dms they're not as good at it/... Is your football knowledge really dictated by fudging heat maps and stats ?

 

[parklane1]

There is more to being. Defensive midfielder than tackles. It is about protection. It is about being strong/aggressive. It is bout primarily sitting in front of the back 4. It is about helping out the centre backs. Usually includes keeping play simple in the passing.

AS for heat maps... Really? fudge me. No, maybe we wouldn't be able to tell, they may have taken up the same positions as Dier but because they aren't dms they're not as good at it/... Is your football knowledge really dictated by fudgeing heat maps and stats ?

You will be cast out for suggesting heat mats are fallible I would be careful if I were you , As you say they could be stood in the same place ball watching instead of doing what they should be doing( providing cover for the back four) which neither of Mason/ Bentaleb did much of last season.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Welcome to this weeks edition of 'Pedants vs. macarons'. Let's meet our contestants...

 

[scaramanga]

Does Dier not usually make tackles and interceptions then? Against Arsenal he didn't seem to make many (any?) but that was often because Arsenal weren't playing through the middle at all, they were either going wide or by-passing the midfield and going long. I would imagine he has made his far share of tackles in our other games though?

Certainly not at a higher rate than any of our other midfielders (except Chadli).

 

[milo]

There is more to being. Defensive midfielder than tackles. It is about protection. It is about being strong/aggressive. It is bout primarily sitting in front of the back 4. It is about helping out the centre backs. Usually includes keeping play simple in the passing.

AS for heat maps... Really? fudge me. No, maybe we wouldn't be able to tell, they may have taken up the same positions as Dier but because they aren't dms they're not as good at it/... Is your football knowledge really dictated by fudgeing heat maps and stats ?

That was in response to a suggestion that he was playing deeper than Mason and Bentaleb did last year. It was also an attempt to look at this objectively. Heat maps would show that but I would be happy with any other objective way of making a comparison that you can suggest.

 

[scaramanga]

objective

 

[braineclipse]

There is more to being. Defensive midfielder than tackles. It is about protection. It is about being strong/aggressive. It is bout primarily sitting in front of the back 4. It is about helping out the centre backs. Usually includes keeping play simple in the passing.

AS for heat maps... Really? fudge me. No, maybe we wouldn't be able to tell, they may have taken up the same positions as Dier but because they aren't dms they're not as good at it/... Is your football knowledge really dictated by fudgeing heat maps and stats ?

Unfair in the extreme towards billy's point.

A reasonable approach to a debate like this is to try to find something objective that can be compared. And if people can make predictions ahead of time based on their opinions that's very much a worthwile exercise. If you're at all willing to consider that evidence could in fact run counter to your opinion.

Your reation makes you seem like you're more interested in just shouting your opinion than any actual discussion on the topic.

 

[milo]

You will be cast out for suggesting heat mats are fallible I would be careful if I were you , As you say they could be stood in the same place ball watching instead of doing what they should be doing( providing cover for the back four) which neither of Mason/ Bentaleb did much of last season.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that heat maps are infallible and obviously they are only one of many ways that we can look at what a player does during a game.

The reason I asked the question was because @Pirate55 was saying that Dier took up different positions to Bentaleb and Mason and I was interested in whether we could test this objectively. If he is, it should be easy to do. Would you be happier with a blind test where we looked at a number of facets of the players game?

The risk with any observation is that our mind lies to us and has a habit of telling us that we saw want we want to see. Use of analysis and statistics is obviously only as good as the person doing the interpreting the data but at least this is laid bare and someone can easily challenge the interpretation.

 

[Pirate55]

I certainly wasn't suggesting that heat maps are infallible and obviously they are only one of many ways that we can look at what a player does during a game.

The reason I asked the question was because @Pirate55 was saying that Dier took up different positions to Bentaleb and Mason and I was interested in whether we could test this objectively. If he is, it should be easy to do. Would you be happier with a blind test where we looked at a number of facets of the players game?

The risk with any observation is that our mind lies to us and has a habit of telling us that we saw want we want to see. Use of analysis and statistics is obviously only as good as the person doing the interpreting the data but at least this is laid bare and someone can easily challenge the interpretation.

Provided we take a reasonable sized sample ( and not ones selected for their partiality) I would certainly expect Dier's to show different defensive positioning ( as well as attacking positioning ( with dead balls removed) , yes.

 

[parklane1]

I certainly wasn't suggesting that heat maps are infallible and obviously they are only one of many ways that we can look at what a player does during a game.

.

It was not directed at anyone special mate just a general observation.

 

[milo]

Provided we take a reasonable sized sample ( and not ones selected for their partiality) I would certainly expect Dier's to show different defensive positioning ( as well as attacking positioning ( with dead balls removed) , yes.

What would you prefer, heat maps for a number of games for each player or a single game with a range of criteria (heat map, passing, tackling, fouling, touches)?

 

[billyiddo]

What would you prefer, heat maps for a number of games for each player or a single game with a range of criteria (heat map, passing, tackling, fouling, touches)?

For this season you could do a game by game comparison between the 2 CMs, my guess is one would show being deeper on a erage than the other.

Comparing to games from last season could be a bit tricky as there are a lot of variables involved

 

[milo]

For this season you could do a game by game comparison between the 2 CMs, my guess is one would show being deeper on a erage than the other.

Comparing to games from last season could be a bit tricky as there are a lot of variables involved

I thought that we were talking about the comparison between last season and this

 

[milo]

OK. Here we go. Three players (Dier, Mason and Bentaleb), three games, some from last season and some from this. Which is which?

Player 1

Player 2

Player 3

 

[billyiddo]

I thought that we were talking about the comparison between last season and this

I thought we was talking about this season aswell - there seems to be suggestion that Dier isn't playing a deeper defensive role (when compared with his CM partner this season) unless i have misread?

With regards to last season v this, and your earlier post im now of the opinion that heat maps would be inconclusive as there are too many variables at play (opposition and how they were setup, how we were playing that day among others)

At the very least they would have to be against the same opposition and at the same venue (home v away) before we could begin to read anything in to them.



Edit : 1 Dier, 2/3 = Mason/Bentaleb?