The Defence

[milo]

I have criticised his total lack of nous more than most, I live in hope that next season he might play three at the back especially at home, this year it will be MP`s team so no excuses to be had, he has to find a system where we get a return from the investment in our players.

What are the benefits of playing three at the back? Which teams would you be looking to emulate?

 

[LutonSpurs]

The 3 at the back argument is interesting.

Liverpool - Played it on and off and it clearly was not a great season for them or a great formation for them.

LVG - Utd were struggling till they went to a back 4, the 3 at the back was a disaster for LVG.

Hull - They had an awful season

Sunderland - Awful season

The only team across europe who is doing well with it is Juventus. BUT look the personnel they had. Chiellini and co at back. Pirlo, Pogba and Vidal. Tevex and Morata. They would have done well with any formation.

 

[Jimmy-g]

What are the benefits of playing three at the back? Which teams would you be looking to emulate?

Not trying to emulate, trying to second guess, Trippier and Rose suit three at the back and its a way of getting to play two strikers, tbh playing three behind a lone striker last season looked a right mess to me although I admit this could be down to having unsuitable personal, we do keep a lot of possession so surely three at the back would give us more options going forward ?

 

[Jimmy-g]

The 3 at the back argument is interesting.

Liverpool - Played it on and off and it clearly was not a great season for them or a great formation for them.

LVG - Utd were struggling till they went to a back 4, the 3 at the back was a disaster for LVG.

Hull - They had an awful season

Sunderland - Awful season

The only team across europe who is doing well with it is Juventus. BUT look the personnel they had. Chiellini and co at back. Pirlo, Pogba and Vidal. Tevex and Morata. They would have done well with any formation.

Surely it would give us more attacking options especially at home.

 

[Rorschach]

The 3 at the back argument is interesting.

Liverpool - Played it on and off and it clearly was not a great season for them or a great formation for them.

LVG - Utd were struggling till they went to a back 4, the 3 at the back was a disaster for LVG.

Hull - They had an awful season

Sunderland - Awful season

The only team across europe who is doing well with it is Juventus. BUT look the personnel they had. Chiellini and co at back. Pirlo, Pogba and Vidal. Tevex and Morata. They would have done well with any formation.

Yes that is my recollection of how it panned out for those teams too.

I think 3 at the back is too much of a departure for most defenders and full backs. Their positioning is often engrained over years of development and as can be seen at Utd for example, a switch to a back three often just results in confusion. However I would be an advocate of three in the middle of the park of some occasions, especially if we have a deep lying play-maker type at our disposal in the mould of Schneiderlin or Carrick (yep I'd take him back in an instant)

 

[milo]

Not trying to emulate, trying to second guess, Trippier and Rose suit three at the back and its a way of getting to play two strikers, tbh playing three behind a lone striker last season looked a right mess to me although I admit this could be down to having unsuitable personal, we do keep a lot of possession so surely three at the back would give us more options going forward ?

So there is not a team that you look to and would like us to play like?

I think that it is a bit simplistic to say that three defender is more solid and two strikers means more goals. I did not expect us to be the finished product in Poch's first season, especially when he had to spend a fair chunk of it weighing up his options. He clearly has a vision of how he wants us to play and I think that we should allow him to see that through unless there are very good reasons for trying something different. I am yet to hear anyone make a convincing argument for switching to 3-5-2.

 

[milo]

Surely it would give us more attacking options especially at home.

How?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The problem with the for and counter arguments are that there is no reference

Ten years ago no one was player 4-2-3-1 here and now most do

I for one want a manager to innovate not duplicate what someone else does

By the way the teams you mentioned didn't have one decent defender between them but both United and Liverpool had better goal agains records than us

Also the side that actually played 3-5-2 properly last seasons were Leicester and they outplayed us twice (when we beat them both times)

 

[milo]

The problem with the for and counter arguments are that there is no reference

Ten years ago no one was player 4-2-3-1 here and now most do

I for one want a manager to innovate not duplicate what someone else does

By the way the teams you mentioned didn't have one decent defender between them but both United and Liverpool had better goal agains records than us

Also the side that actually played 3-5-2 properly last seasons were Leicester and they outplayed us twice (when we beat them both times)

Why do you think that 4-2-3-1 has become the predominant formation in world football? Do you think that it is managerial group think or do you think that there are other reasons that it is so popular?

Formations are all about exploiting space on the pitch, obviously someone will work out a weakness in 4-2-3-1 and use a formation/tactics to exploit this. I don't recall seeing this yet and I think that if people are arguing that it could be 3-5-2, that needs to be backed up.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Why do you think that 4-2-3-1 has become the predominant formation in world football? Do you think that it is managerial group think or do you think that there are other reasons that it is so popular?

Formations are all about exploiting space on the pitch, obviously someone will work out a weakness in 4-2-3-1 and use a formation/tactics to exploit this. I don't recall seeing this yet and I think that if people are arguing that it could be 3-5-2, that needs to be backed up.

Fashion!!!

Honestly the whole world revolves around mimicry and duplication

If you look at other sports for example like tennis... All male players are now back go court rather than net players as some players showed that this suited them and everyone went that way

Someone in the future will come net again and make that dominant

With limited variation thing will come and go as they always do

I don't think anyone is saying 3-5-2 is the answer merely an option. Who knows if Poch is seeing it that way. He will do whatever he wants and good luck to him as that's his job

 

[milo]

Fashion!!!

Honestly the whole world revolves around mimicry and duplication

If you look at other sports for example like tennis... All male players are now back go court rather than net players as some players showed that this suited them and everyone went that way

Someone in the future will come net again and make that dominant

With limited variation thing will come and go as they always do

I don't think anyone is saying 3-5-2 is the answer merely an option. Who knows if Poch is seeing it that way. He will do whatever he wants and good luck to him as that's his job

This is an interesting read

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/jan/15/the-question-4231-football-tactics

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This is an interesting read

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/jan/15/the-question-4231-football-tactics

Yeah a great article

What we need is a system that works with the players we have

I personally am not presciosj about the system only the results and the football

 

[glasgowspur]

Fashion!!!

Honestly the whole world revolves around mimicry and duplication

If you look at other sports for example like tennis... All male players are now back go court rather than net players as some players showed that this suited them and everyone went that way

Someone in the future will come net again and make that dominant

With limited variation thing will come and go as they always do

I don't think anyone is saying 3-5-2 is the answer merely an option. Who knows if Poch is seeing it that way. He will do whatever he wants and good luck to him as that's his job

I agree, but I would go further. Fear of losing means negative countering tactics instead of inotive daring tactics. I put that down to the coaching badges regime as well.
Also for clubs like us, Liverpool who are not only trying to improve but break into a different level managers aren't given enough time.
If Sunderland for example go from 12th to 8th it's an improvement but not a step up. But for us or Liverpool to go from 5/6th to 4th it's not just an improvement it's a big step up. IMO that's not going to happen in 1/2 seasons. Arsenal are the same, it's only two places and maybe 8 points but the gulf in class from 3rd to champions is huge.
4-2-3-1 has been successful for a while, so to buy some time managers will adopt it. If they didn't and things got sticky it would be just another brick to hit them with.

 

[milo]

Yeah a great article

What we need is a system that works with the players we have

I personally am not presciosj about the system only the results and the football

Our squad was assembled to play 4-2-3-1. What it was not assembled to do was play Poch's pressing game with ball players in central midfield to turn around play quickly.

 

[Jimmy-g]

So there is not a team that you look to and would like us to play like?

I think that it is a bit simplistic to say that three defender is more solid and two strikers means more goals. I did not expect us to be the finished product in Poch's first season, especially when he had to spend a fair chunk of it weighing up his options. He clearly has a vision of how he wants us to play and I think that we should allow him to see that through unless there are very good reasons for trying something different. I am yet to hear anyone make a convincing argument for switching to 3-5-2.

Where have I said that 3 defenders are more solid ? what I did suggest is that playing the three would suit our present players and surely give us more attacking options, last season at times we were sterile, W,4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 whatever, the system must suit your available players, LVG changed his system and finished fourth our manager was anal in his belief and played square pegs in round holes.

 

[billyiddo]

where does this idea that 3 at the back suits our players come from?

edit : or indeed that 4231 does not suit our players?

 

[milo]

Where have I said that 3 defenders are more solid ? what I did suggest is that playing the three would suit our present players and surely give us more attacking options, last season at times we were sterile, W,4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 whatever, the system must suit your available players, LVG changed his system and finished fourth our manager was anal in his belief and played square pegs in round holes.

I do not think that it does suit our players better. You say that 3-5-2 gives you more attacking options but haven't explained how or why. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

LvG was scrabbling around trying to find a system that worked with the players they had. They looked a mess until they were forced into playing four at the back and things clicked.

 

[Jimmy-g]

where does this idea that 3 at the back suits our players come from?

edit : or indeed that 4231 does not suit our players?

Any three from Verts,Toby, Dier or Wimmer and Rose,Walker, Trippier are suited to the wingback role also our midfield is all much of a muchness so any three of them with one sitting.

 

[Jimmy-g]

I do not think that it does suit our players better. You say that 3-5-2 gives you more attacking options but haven't explained how or why. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

LvG was scrabbling around trying to find a system that worked with the players they had. They looked a mess until they were forced into playing four at the back and things clicked.

Felaini was LVG`s saviour and for the last third of the season he played to him, could you imagine Poch doing that ? the system gives you two strikers up top at all times that in itself gives you more options, as stated I would like to see it in home games, also you said that LVG was scrabbling around to find a system that suited, our manager just blindly adhered to his precious system which made it difficult for our attacking players and made us laughable at the back, Mason and Nabil as the defensive shield, please, don't make me laugh.

 

[Cochise]

One of the things I liked about Juve was that they had all the confidence in the world when playing in their own penalty area. The back three and Pirlo would form a little diamond and along with Buffon would knock the ball about until pressed. They were able to draw in the opposition and along with Pogba and Vidal drag the opposition all over the place before Pirlo was able to switch the ball to a wingback in space. They played a very athletic brand of football though and that is one reason why I am not sure we have the players for the system.