Taking stock: are we heading for another Chelski style car-crash ?

[thfcsteff]

Tactical ineptness. Sandro was still on the bench.

AVB definitely got this one wrong, no doubt. I have greatly enjoyed Dembele in a deeper role, but this was a game where with Eriksen getting squeezed and bullied out of it, once Defoe failed to score the 1 on 1 he has to be thinking of bringing Sandro on, taking Eriksen off and pushing Dembele up into an advanced role so as we have muscle and strength at front AND back...we did, of course, lose a lof of shape by not starting Soldado, a point which hasn't been made too much but which was apparent to me anyway...yeah, an off-day for all. But he learns and learns fast...I don't think we'll see the likes of it again this season...

 

[thfcsteff]

cb's arent allowed to be turned once in a while anymore? by speedy wingers none the less

you guys are harsh. Dawson tried to show him widee but morrison did a good job by taking the harder unexpected option and going into traffic . you see that happening ALL the time on wing with wingers slipping between two defenders. the issue here is that morrison had a chance to run at dawson at all

This.

Funny, I said the same already without seeing this...

At the time I thought Morrison's run was excellent, and it only gets better the more you watch it. If the guy can keep his head straight he is one hell of a talent...

 

[onlyme]

I think it's fairly clear AVB fatally underestimated West Ham and thought he could afford not to use Sandro. We thought, "They can't score away," failed to pay them enough respect, the players had the wrong attitude and we got punished. Hopefully, the "wake-up call" speech wasn't just for the cameras, and we'll actually be the wiser for the experience in future.

The definitive post on that game.

 

[braineclipse]

Can anyone tell me why we didn't have Sandro shielding the defence, if Walker was so far up the pitch? Where was the defensive cover?

Not quite sure what you're asking for here.

Are you asking why, when behind at home against West Ham, we didn't leave enough players that the back to deal with any and all potential counter attacking threats that could arise?

We were chasing the game, of course we were going to commit players forward and be vulnerable on the break. When we give the ball away going forward our defensive players will be exposed, that's a part of football.

 

[braineclipse]

This.

Funny, I said the same already without seeing this...

At the time I thought Morrison's run was excellent, and it only gets better the more you watch it. If the guy can keep his head straight he is one hell of a talent...

The run overall is obviously good and strong. But it's not some excellent move that takes him past Dawson, it's a pretty basic change of direction.

Those of you saying that Dawson didn't do anything wrong and it was all down to Morrison's ability do you think other centre backs we've had playing for in the last couple of years like Vertonghen, Kaboul or King would have done better in that situation? I think all of them would have been likely to do significantly better and based on what we've seen from Chiriches so far I think there's a very good chance he would have done better in that situation too.

 

[El Guepardo]

Not quite sure what you're asking for here.

Are you asking why, when behind at home against West Ham, we didn't leave enough players that the back to deal with any and all potential counter attacking threats that could arise?

We were chasing the game, of course we were going to commit players forward and be vulnerable on the break. When we give the ball away going forward our defensive players will be exposed, that's a part of football.

But you still need to have a defensive platform. Sure, give players more attacking freedom but what's the point in being that open that the opposition more easily score against you than you can against them?

I'd say we need a platform of three defending. That way, there's still seven players attacking but we have a more solid base from which to attack. Furthermore, the three can slow down opposition attacks to provide time for others to get back.

 

[El Guepardo]

The run overall is obviously good and strong. But it's not some excellent move that takes him past Dawson, it's a pretty basic change of direction.

Those of you saying that Dawson didn't do anything wrong and it was all down to Morrison's ability do you think other centre backs we've had playing for in the last couple of years like Vertonghen, Kaboul or King would have done better in that situation? I think all of them would have been likely to do significantly better and based on what we've seen from Chiriches so far I think there's a very good chance he would have done better in that situation too.

Dawson is too often like Caulker was. He's too heavy footed at times, finds it difficult to read the game and launches in when it's better sometimes to jockey the attacker. Sure, Morrison's attack was a good one but, had Dawson slowed play down a little, the others could have arrived back more quickly.

I even think that Dawson could have been better continually tracking Morrison rather than diving in. Add pressure to Morrison, even if Morrison's skill has taken him past Dawson. That way, more pressure on Morrison when he's striking at goal.

 

[braineclipse]

But you still need to have a defensive platform. Sure, give players more attacking freedom but what's the point in being that open that the opposition more easily score against you than you can against them?

I'd say we need a platform of three defending. That way, there's still seven players attacking but we have a more solid base from which to attack. Furthermore, the three can slow down opposition attacks to provide time for others to get back.

When you're chasing a game you don't have a choice. You have to push forward and yes that included being open to the point where the opposition will more easily score against you than you can against them. That's the advantage for the team that can sit back and counter attack either due to the score or due to expectations in a game. The point is that you increase your chance of scoring too and a goal for us is more beneficial than a goal against is harmful when you're already behind.

Most of the time we do have that platform. It's not like West Ham cut us open with ease on the break at 0-0. And it's not like that's happened a ton earlier in the season either.

Against a team that is defending with 9-10 outfield players in their own half do you really want us to keep a platform of three defending when chasing a game at home? I think there would be a lot of unhappy reactions if that became our standard.

 

[El Guepardo]

Whilst the score is still 1-0 and there is 20 minutes left, then yes I would. If there were just 5 minutes left and we decided to lay a kamikaze siege on the opponents goal then I'd be all for it.

20 minutes should give a good chance if the other 7 players are linking well, getting in to good positions and really getting at the opposition. Whereas to go from 1-0 to 2-0 down, just makes the game that much less retrievable.

So whilst I can understand your view, I think the tactic is time dependant. You need to play the right balance for the right time.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

It was a reaction to Sandro's injury and made a lot of sense.

How so? Holtby plays an entirely different position

 

[glorygloryeze]

Interesting posts...what do others think of my slight comparison between AVB and Rafa Benitez, in that they like to concentrate on controlling games after taking certain leads, like say 2-0, which to my mind makes them probably much more effective in Europe than in the PL?

 

[glorygloryeze]

How so? Holtby plays an entirely different position

I think the logic behind the Holtby transfer needs to be discussed more (not buying him in the first place, more the change of decision to bring the transfer forward which seemed to co-incide with fears of Defoe's fitness).

Not quite sure that he can/could ever be considered a Sandro replacement, surely that was Parker?

 

[Jurgen the German]

My thoughts (i.e. largely a defence of AVB):

As above. As soon as his teams are two up, AVB starts preparing for the next match. At Porto he always used to take off a forward and bring on a midfielder (from 4-3-3 to 4-4-2) and kill off the game through total possession. It’s completely calculated and is about being efficient, at the expensive of being flashy.[/QUOTE]

Infuriates me when managers do this, not just Spurs managers. What happens if the other team equalise? Kind of ****ed then aren't you? Amazes me when managers do it in European knockout games or in World Cup elimination games when you have to play extra time without a striker if the strategy fails.

 

[glorygloryeze]

My thoughts (i.e. largely a defence of AVB):

As above. As soon as his teams are two up, AVB starts preparing for the next match. At Porto he always used to take off a forward and bring on a midfielder (from 4-3-3 to 4-4-2) and kill off the game through total possession. It’s completely calculated and is about being efficient, at the expensive of being flashy.[/QUOTE]

Infuriates me when managers do this, not just Spurs managers. What happens if the other team equalise? Kind of ****ed then aren't you? Amazes me when managers do it in European knockout games or in World Cup elimination games when you have to play extra time without a striker if the strategy fails.

Tbf, there are times that it can be done to perfection; I remember Juande Ramos taking off two striker against Arsenal in the 5-1 League cup game in January 2008.

Despite conceding the Adebayor long-range screamer we didn't 'do-a-Spurs' and capitulate; in fact we almost toyed with Arsenal by dictating the tempo and mainly keeping possession in the last 25 mins or so. I don't think i'd ever seen us close out a game against Arsenal like that in my lifetime. Granted we wee 40/4-1 up...but when has that ever stopped Spurs losing a game before???

Brings up another question: what are the main differences (and similarities) between Juande Ramos and AVB?:-k

 

[Pirate55]

AVB definitely got this one wrong, no doubt. I have greatly enjoyed Dembele in a deeper role, but this was a game where with Eriksen getting squeezed and bullied out of it, once Defoe failed to score the 1 on 1 he has to be thinking of bringing Sandro on, taking Eriksen off and pushing Dembele up into an advanced role so as we have muscle and strength at front AND back...we did, of course, lose a lof of shape by not starting Soldado, a point which hasn't been made too much but which was apparent to me anyway...yeah, an off-day for all. But he learns and learns fast...I don't think we'll see the likes of it again this season...

,

Only if he learns to utilise his whole squad better and not take over half the team he intended to play in a key London derby on Sunday to a EL team of no hopers on the other side of the world on Thursday. Last season he may have had the excuse of an insufficient squad. That isn't the case this season, so this must not happen again. No excuses.

 

[Pirate55]

My thoughts (i.e. largely a defence of AVB):

As above. As soon as his teams are two up, AVB starts preparing for the next match. At Porto he always used to take off a forward and bring on a midfielder (from 4-3-3 to 4-4-2) and kill off the game through total possession. It’s completely calculated and is about being efficient, at the expensive of being flashy.[/QUOTE]

Infuriates me when managers do this, not just Spurs managers. What happens if the other team equalise? Kind of ****ed then aren't you? Amazes me when managers do it in European knockout games or in World Cup elimination games when you have to play extra time without a striker if the strategy fails.

Absolutely agree. 3 goals up and 10 minutes left is okay but foolhardy and potentially very costly in other situations.

 

[Hootnow]

,

Only if he learns to utilise his whole squad better and not take over half the team he intended to play in a key London derby on Sunday to a EL team of no hopers on the other side of the world on Thursday. Last season he may have had the excuse of an insufficient squad. That isn't the case this season, so this must not happen again. No excuses.

? He only started 4 of the same players in both matches, one of whom was Lloris.

I'd rather it have been zero as well but let's not exaggerate.

 

[Rossi22]

A lot of them still made the trip though, they should've stayed at home.

 

[Pirate55]

A lot of them still made the trip though, they should've stayed at home.

Exactly this. And 7 played in Anji. Walker got injured and Dembele and Sig looked knackered against Wet Spam.

Hardly an exageration to connect the two games.

 

[Spursalot]

A lot of them still made the trip though, they should've stayed at home.

Can't see this as being an excuse really.



We dominated West Ham for 60 minutes and didn't take our chances. We didn't score when we were on top, this is why we lost.