Bullet
Chris Jones
Wow, that is stark
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Tactics Thread
- Thread starter diego_maradona
- Start date
metalgear
Andy Thompson
Comments from the post above - worth reading. TLDR - he blames ange for the injuries.
Meia Armador
@MeiaArmador__
It’s interesting that Postecoglu’s whole point is that players are out. I don’t understand, as I have said before, if the injuries are non-impact muscular injuries, and they are incessant, how is the physical conditioning not on the coaching staff? It’s totally to do with the physical demands on the pitch and on the training ground.
Let’s objectively look at what entails that the physical load is far too high.
1) Tottenham are the 4th highest in PPDA. To put it simply, they press very aggressively. Does this mean they should not press? Of course not, but this higher physical load should be managed with lower loads in possession. Let’s look at that.
2) Spurs have committed 781 dribbling attempts (not take-ons). They rank 1st in the league, but that does not portray the whole picture. Spurs are clear outliers in this regard; Chelsea are 2nd, but they have committed 131 fewer attempts. To put that into perspective, the difference between 2nd and 14th is 129 attempts. Clear indication of the higher intensity in the approach.
3) The more vertical and high-tempo a team is, the higher the levels of ball losses will be. It’s neither a good thing nor bad; that depends on the overall game model. Spurs rank 4th in that regard; to put that into perspective, teams that manage similar levels of possession rank 15th and below. Clear sign of a more intense approach.
4) Finally, the most obvious metric to measure physical workload: how much the team sprints. Again, Spurs are clear outliers in this regard, as shown in the graph. The excessive amount of positional rotations also have a part to play in this. It’s abundantly clear that the game model puts an excessive physical load on the players.
There are a lot more stats I can get into with regards to accelerations, distances between zonal substructures, and recovery-related stats. Unfortunately, they are only available to the coaching staff at the club, but the metrics I have mentioned still prove the point objectively and conclusively.
thfcsteff
Vic Buckingham
Comments from the post above - worth reading. TLDR - he blames ange for the injuries.
Meia Armador
@MeiaArmador__
It’s interesting that Postecoglu’s whole point is that players are out. I don’t understand, as I have said before, if the injuries are non-impact muscular injuries, and they are incessant, how is the physical conditioning not on the coaching staff? It’s totally to do with the physical demands on the pitch and on the training ground.
Let’s objectively look at what entails that the physical load is far too high.
1) Tottenham are the 4th highest in PPDA. To put it simply, they press very aggressively. Does this mean they should not press? Of course not, but this higher physical load should be managed with lower loads in possession. Let’s look at that.
2) Spurs have committed 781 dribbling attempts (not take-ons). They rank 1st in the league, but that does not portray the whole picture. Spurs are clear outliers in this regard; Chelsea are 2nd, but they have committed 131 fewer attempts. To put that into perspective, the difference between 2nd and 14th is 129 attempts. Clear indication of the higher intensity in the approach.
3) The more vertical and high-tempo a team is, the higher the levels of ball losses will be. It’s neither a good thing nor bad; that depends on the overall game model. Spurs rank 4th in that regard; to put that into perspective, teams that manage similar levels of possession rank 15th and below. Clear sign of a more intense approach.
4) Finally, the most obvious metric to measure physical workload: how much the team sprints. Again, Spurs are clear outliers in this regard, as shown in the graph. The excessive amount of positional rotations also have a part to play in this. It’s abundantly clear that the game model puts an excessive physical load on the players.
There are a lot more stats I can get into with regards to accelerations, distances between zonal substructures, and recovery-related stats. Unfortunately, they are only available to the coaching staff at the club, but the metrics I have mentioned still prove the point objectively and conclusively.
Then stats do not take into account the international football and overall load on these players opver the last two to three seasons. I think any set of stats can be taken and adapted to fit any specific POV. As keeps being said in this ongoing discussion, there is obviously some bleed over with regards to the style of football we play versus load on players versus injuries, but it is far from the full story (whatever set of facts in isloation get presented). FWIW this graph has been presented elsewhere (on this forum I believe) and given a whole different shade of context.
Arsenal and Emirates Marketing Project are two examples of teams which are fairly aggressive and are also suffering similar injuries this season. Villa could probably edge into that category too. I think our strength and conditioning dept have messed up with regards to their work, and it appears the club agree as they are piling into solutions.
I am sure we're getting tired of disagreeing on the prime cause(s) of our injuries, so let me ask another question. IF we get our strenght and conditioning dept together, would you rather us continue playing the style of football we currently play, or switch the philosophy of the club (currently)- and adopt a more pragmatic/adjust to opposition approach? I think you know what my vote would be ;-)
Bishop
Jimmy Neighbour
Coaches who adjust specifics to their upcoming opposition tend to be the coaches who win things. Sure if you have assembled the absolute best collection of players then you can go and play your game no matter what but we don't have that and never will. So a degree of tactical nuance is required to get the best out of whatever squad we have available.
Adjusting to the opposition doesn't mean wholesale changes to everything but it does mean being aware of the opposition danger men and actually potentially having a plan for them. It might also mean finally addressing the flipping wide overloads we see against our FBs every single game multiple times a game and from which we have conceded umpteen goals. All imo of course.
metalgear
Andy Thompson
year to year, demands change aplenty due to international and european demandsl for a top epl club.
so it makes sense that a one-style-fits-all approach to football isn't the best solution for these conditions.
if you want to compete at the top, there is no choice but to have to adjust to your own situation as well as the opposition's !
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
Ange does adjust though...
I guess part of the question is have we seen the "final form" of Angeball (accepting that there's probably no such thing). Or will he think that's there's ways to use and get better within his system and approach we're yet to see.
Imo quite a few of our issues would be sorted with a really good 6/DM. That's true for most systems.
Another issue we have talked about repeatedly is the dribbly creative winger. I think that's key to really push on with this kind of system. We've essentially not seen that yet. Tried to part way fix that in the summer with Odobert, but he's been out injured almost all season.
Personally I don't think we've seen the best of Angeball yet. And I still want to see what that would look like.
I guess part of the question is have we seen the "final form" of Angeball (accepting that there's probably no such thing). Or will he think that's there's ways to use and get better within his system and approach we're yet to see.
Imo quite a few of our issues would be sorted with a really good 6/DM. That's true for most systems.
Another issue we have talked about repeatedly is the dribbly creative winger. I think that's key to really push on with this kind of system. We've essentially not seen that yet. Tried to part way fix that in the summer with Odobert, but he's been out injured almost all season.
Personally I don't think we've seen the best of Angeball yet. And I still want to see what that would look like.
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
How do you see those overloads on our full backs?
To me they mostly seem to happen in counter attacking situations and when our press is bypassed.
Assuming Ange doesn't want to send fewer players forward or change that we press high the "fixes" for me is reducing the number of turnovers, pressing better and perhaps being better at cohesively dropping off when the press fails. To me it's more a question of reducing the frequency of those situations rather than addressing it in a way that stops it from happening.
I do wonder if there's room for more adjustments in our pressing structure. Difficult to say now with our recent period of injuries and fatigue dominating my memory. But we really struggle when our press doesn’t work for whatever reason.
I think we heve seen adjustments when up against really good teams. But it's just as much of an issue when we're up against not so good teams.
parklane1
Vivian Woodward
I can agree with all of that especially the need for a DM, i know i have been going on all season about our fragility in CM but we are really lacking there without one.
Bishop
Jimmy Neighbour
I kind of agree that I think for Ange the solution is to allow fewer turnovers, but I don't know if i believe that's a realistic proposition it kind of requires a significant improvement in the level of technique across the side. If we are going to continuously replenish and refresh the side then maybe that's something that can work as the quality increases, but with the squad we have now there's no chance.
We have good players but what Ange requires really is the most elite of elite in terms of touch, technique and passing, we are nowhere near that. That's why for me I think it's an easier task to adjust the balance. I just find it tiresome watching games, seeing the same overload and just waiting for the opposition to finally get the pass right. It's so clearly been identified by everyone's that they all do it to us multiple times a game.
I'm not really sure what exactly the best course of action is. I think potentially having our wide men track the widest attacker might work although that potentially leaves the entire team too deep and compressed. Another approach might be for the FB to actually go out and challenge that man but that would likely require a midfielder to drop in or at least track whichever opposition midfielder is moving into our box.
Some of it as you say due to the counter transitional recovery positioning but some of it is that we defend quite narrow, you see that especially with Porro who will often wait until the pass is made out wide before he goes to that man even in settled defensive situations. When I we are under a counter it's just a bit wild, it's so obvious with two players just queueing up out wide to either receive, the ball, shoot or make a final pass. It's so incredibly open.
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
I guess for me the counter attacking situations will often result in overloads no matter what. We've seen it a lot the other way when we've been ahead, teams have had to come out and we have the chances to counter attack.
I'm not sure he requires the most elite of elite in terms of touch, technique and passing. We have quite a few players I think are "good enough" and even then some. We even have some players who can really carry a lot of responsibility in that regard (on form at least). But too many are not quite good enough imo, and with too many of those who really can carry that responsibility out or off form/fatigued at the same time we really struggle.
We need more clear profile fits who are at least "good enough" (ideally better).
Bishop
Jimmy Neighbour
I guess where we differ is that I think you need players of the ilk of Xavi, Iniesta, De Bruyne, Gundogan (in his peak), Silva, Modric etc to play this style successfully and thats where we are no where close. You certainly can't have players like Son or Johnson on the wings where attacks go to die and the ball is so easily lost.
Not really .. The adjustment that would matter is in game management, that I haven't seen as a tactic
- e.g. When as in first half against United (or the infamous Brighton game), you are absolutely bossing it, go ahead, tear it up, be the league outlier in sprints/presses/etc.
- However, when the inevitable happens, when the opposition gets a little momentum swing (say, for more than 5 mins), give your players the option to just lower the block, become more compact, close the wide (FB) spaces and make it difficult for the opposition to create chances, look for the counter.
- Let them burn out, get control back, switch back to your high intensity.
If Ange could actually learn/implement that second point, we would be a much better team
That is a problem, I heard someone detail Pep's principles (even across all the changes) into two concepts
- Creating overloads (the false 9's. interchangeability of positions, committing players to attack)
- Creating isolations, purposely having 1:1 situations (trick here is, it required you have the better player to prevail in the 1:1)
Spurs can have very good teams and individual players, we can't however depend on a system that requires us to have the best players in the league.
Bedfordspurs
Terry Naylor
Like we did vs Brentford or are you saying there was no in game adjustments in that game?
Muttley
Steve Hodge
Thing is, in game adjustments are needed every game........win, lose or draw. Some minor, some major. It is no longer about whether we can see any. It's about whether we can see enough. Personally, I'd still like to see more.
What I wonder is whether we will see less as the first team return. Whether it starts to feel again like Ange is letting the opposition worry about our plan A and not worrying about theirs enough.
What I wonder is whether we will see less as the first team return. Whether it starts to feel again like Ange is letting the opposition worry about our plan A and not worrying about theirs enough.
thfcsteff
Vic Buckingham
I think there's some truth to that of course, but with regards to winning things, the coaches who get the pots appear to me to be the coaches who have the best players to execute their systems. I'd counter that Barca under Pep and currently Emirates Marketing Project played their way and their way only; they just had the best players. Liverpool the same thing. Prime Bayern, same thing. I'd actually suggest that cost Arsenal the title last season was allowing pragmatism to invade their space at critical moments i.e. going to City and playing for a draw when had they gone to win they'd probably have won the title.
What is probably worth (me) acceopting is that Ange will never have those instant blue chips, thus it will be tougher to do it 'his' way without them throughout the squad...
An interesting conversation.
thfcsteff
Vic Buckingham
Probably the single biggest long-term modification that can help Ange, is to continue not being quite so all-out with the inverted FBs. Still play our way but just keep recognising 'triggers' to send them versus going back to it being a default mode when everyone is fit...trying to see all angles of the discussion here!
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
Yeah, this is probably what our disagreement boils down to.
There's imo room for a Son, a Johnson. But more difficult with both, and even more so when there are multiple others with similar/related weaknesses..
Muttley
Steve Hodge
We've said it all season. It's one of the reasons that opposition managers know how to setup against him. The other 2 pieces of the same equation is playing with a proper number 6 that does a total protection role versus pressing really high with the other 2. Secondly, it is also letting the wide forwards get more on the inside when the full-backs go on the outside.
This balance hasn't been found since Ange joined the club but perhaps could click quite quickly.
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
I think there's some room for development on when to switch from a high press to a lower or mid block for sure. Doing that cohesively as a team.
The way I see it those phases (or for worse performances longer stretches of games) where we really struggle are when we consistently fail to play out through a press. Frequent losses of possession, sometimes forced long. For those spells we don't even press that high, we're rarely in a situation to do so.
This may be overly simplistic, but to some extent it comes down to either continuing to play with a lot of ambition, try to play through the press or accept going long for those periods. I'm not against going long in these phases, but I'm in favour of a manager having a clear plan for how he wants us to deal with it.
I don't think we need the best players in the league to deal better with those situations without just going long ball most of the time. But we have too many players who struggle too much with ball retention, ball progression and press resistance when we're not close enough to full strength.
johnola
Chris Armstrong
It is not objective it is highly subjective.Comments from the post above - worth reading. TLDR - he blames ange for the injuries.
Meia Armador
@MeiaArmador__
It’s interesting that Postecoglu’s whole point is that players are out. I don’t understand, as I have said before, if the injuries are non-impact muscular injuries, and they are incessant, how is the physical conditioning not on the coaching staff? It’s totally to do with the physical demands on the pitch and on the training ground.
Let’s objectively look at what entails that the physical load is far too high.
1) Tottenham are the 4th highest in PPDA. To put it simply, they press very aggressively. Does this mean they should not press? Of course not, but this higher physical load should be managed with lower loads in possession. Let’s look at that.
2) Spurs have committed 781 dribbling attempts (not take-ons). They rank 1st in the league, but that does not portray the whole picture. Spurs are clear outliers in this regard; Chelsea are 2nd, but they have committed 131 fewer attempts. To put that into perspective, the difference between 2nd and 14th is 129 attempts. Clear indication of the higher intensity in the approach.
3) The more vertical and high-tempo a team is, the higher the levels of ball losses will be. It’s neither a good thing nor bad; that depends on the overall game model. Spurs rank 4th in that regard; to put that into perspective, teams that manage similar levels of possession rank 15th and below. Clear sign of a more intense approach.
4) Finally, the most obvious metric to measure physical workload: how much the team sprints. Again, Spurs are clear outliers in this regard, as shown in the graph. The excessive amount of positional rotations also have a part to play in this. It’s abundantly clear that the game model puts an excessive physical load on the players.
There are a lot more stats I can get into with regards to accelerations, distances between zonal substructures, and recovery-related stats. Unfortunately, they are only available to the coaching staff at the club, but the metrics I have mentioned still prove the point objectively and conclusively.
When is a sprint a sprint? What is defence what is offense?
The outliers here with a glut of clubs in a median blob suggests something is fundamentally wrong with the graph data batching/rounding or underlying data.
Note for illustration that if Saudi Sportswashing Machine spend 60% of a game attacking and we spend 40% of a game defending, they will be sprinting more than us.
And physical conditioning - is he saying Spurs medics are sometime clinical inferior in this regard and what is his evidence beyond the circumstantial.
It is a load of cods, pub level flimflam.