Substitutions

[Pirate55]

Now we have a much more substantial squad, I wonder whether Poch will be more judicious in his use of subs? In my opinion, one of his greatest weaknesses is his in game management and poor use of subs. His apparent formulaic approach to not changing the team until the hour mark (notwithstanding injury requirements) shows me he lacks tactical awareness and an understanding of game management.

While I love many aspects of Poch's management, this is one aspect I feel he could learn much from Jose and SAF, both of whom didn't hesitate to make much earlier changes when things weren't going well. Even Wenger often gets success with his subs. Poch, not so much. With a better and larger squad, we now really must use our subs to much greater effect in my opinion.

 

[parklane1]

I think that all the noise about our subs is a myth, we have won many games with the subs being made at different times during the game. Just because some fans think that this or that player should be subbed earlier or later then they are does not mean we have a problem, what it means is that some fans think we should. I am happy to leave it to the guy who knows just what our players can do and the man who does it for a living.

Fans think they know better then the guy who does it for a living, and in all honesty we do not. Of course some subs will work out and some will not ( its what happens). But there is a lot of supposition about our times of using subs and its a myth to say it is a weakness of Pochs. Its just fans who think they know better and again in all honesty we do not know the circumstances.

Of course we all have our opinion and there is nothing wrong with us doing that, but to suggest ( or try to suggest) that its a problem is guesswork at best.

 

[AdamB]

Now we have a much more substantial squad, I wonder whether Poch will be more judicious in his use of subs? In my opinion, one of his greatest weaknesses is his in game management and poor use of subs. His apparent formulaic approach to not changing the team until the hour mark (notwithstanding injury requirements) shows me he lacks tactical awareness and an understanding of game management.

While I love many aspects of Poch's management, this is one aspect I feel he could learn much from Jose and SAF, both of whom didn't hesitate to make much earlier changes when things weren't going well. Even Wenger often gets success with his subs. Poch, not so much. With a better and larger squad, we now really must use our subs to much greater effect in my opinion.

Do we have a much more substantial squad? Really? We changed Wimmer for Sanchez and brought in Llorente, so in my mind we're +2 in terms of number of players who are probably at the same or similar level to the starting 11 (Aurier for Walker is a swap, none of us have seen Foyth and he's a U-20 player who might not be PL=ready). And out of those 2, 1 is a CB who isnt likely to change a game, unless it involves changing formation....however Poch has often had, and used, that option before.

So the only additional option he has is Llorente. He should enable us to be more director and/or use crosses more, but I dont agree that we have a 'more substantial squad' or many more options. Shame we didnt get the pacey attacker which a lot of us had hoped for, and/or Gomes/Barkley

 

[Pirate55]

I think that all the noise about our subs is a myth, we have won many games with the subs being made at different times during the game. Just because some fans think that this or that player should be subbed earlier or later then they are does not mean we have a problem, what it means is that some fans think we should. I am happy to leave it to the guy who knows just what our players can do and the man who does it for a living.

Fans think they know better then the guy who does it for a living, and in all honesty we do not. Of course some subs will work out and some will not ( its what happens). But there is a lot of supposition about our times of using subs and its a myth to say it is a weakness of Pochs. Its just fans who think they know better and again in all honesty we do not know the circumstances.

Of course we all have our opinion and there is nothing wrong with us doing that, but to suggest ( or try to suggest) that its a problem is guesswork at best.

Of course substitutions are about opinions. That is a truism. However, when has Poch ever made a tactical sub before the hour mark? There are many times when I feel changes could have been made earlier to give us more chance of affecting the outcome. To give players the odd minute or two, is clearly a nonsense of which he is often guilty.

We now have a bigger squad (hopefully) of players Poch trusts. With Wembley clearly taking much out of our players legs late on in both games we have now played, we must use our subs better and earlier.

 

[Pirate55]

Do we have a much more substantial squad? Really? We changed Wimmer for Sanchez and brought in Llorente, so in my mind we're +2 in terms of number of players who are probably at the same or similar level to the starting 11 (Aurier for Walker is a swap, none of us have seen Foyth and he's a U-20 player who might not be PL=ready). And out of those 2, 1 is a CB who isnt likely to change a game, unless it involves changing formation....however Poch has often had, and used, that option before.

So the only additional option he has is Llorente. He should enable us to be more director and/or use crosses more, but I dont agree that we have a 'more substantial squad' or many more options. Shame we didnt get the pacey attacker which a lot of us had hoped for, and/or Gomes/Barkley

I would also have liked us to sign Barkley, but we certainly do have more options now. Sanchez, Aurier and Llorente have been added and are clearly in the mix for first team selection. The only first teamer we have lost is Walker, who Poch seemed to have lost faith in anyway and rotated him with Trippier. Wimmer was never in contention last season. So Three in and One out. Lamela and Rose to come back to challenge for places. That therefore gives us much more rotational flexibility without a dramatic loss in quality. Hence, we now need to use our subs more, earlier and better.

 

[parklane1]

Of course substitutions are about opinions. That is a truism. However, when has Poch ever made a tactical sub before the hour mark? There are many times when I feel changes could have been made earlier to give us more chance of affecting the outcome. To give players the odd minute or two, is clearly a nonsense of which he is often guilty.

We now have a bigger squad (hopefully) of players Poch trusts. With Wembley clearly taking much out of our players legs late on in both games we have now played, we must use our subs better and earlier.

And there you have it, you think he should have changed while others think he has done what HE thinks is right. As for using the subs at the end he does it to break the game up and waste a bit of time ( nothing nonsense at all). As i said before i think far to much is made by some fans about our subs( it a bit like the buzz word going around this summer about us NEEDING more pace).

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

And there you have it, you think he should have changed while others think he has done what HE thinks is right. As for using the subs at the end he does it to break the game up and waste a bit of time ( nothing nonsense at all). As i said before i think far to much is made by some fans about our subs( it a bit like the buzz word going around this summer about us NEEDING more pace).

Having the pace of Sterling, Oxo and Walker didn't seem to make England look particularly threatening last night. I think it's the pace that you move the ball is more important than the pace of players. I have always disliked the use of tactical substitutes and think it should have been restricted to the professional game. There can't be anything much worse than being a sub for a Sunday morning game at your local park, I know from bitter experience and it's a warning when to hang up your boots.

 

[Modric THFC]

He made 29 subs in 38 league games last season when there was less than 5 minutes left to go. Those are the ones that annoy me.

He might as well be saying i don't really trust the rest of the squad but here's an appearance fee anyway for not being too crap this week in training.

Wasting 15 extra seconds at the end of the game is not more important to the team's chances than a fresh player playing for the last 20 minutes.

 

[parklane1]

Having the pace of Sterling, Oxo and Walker didn't seem to make England look particularly threatening last night. I think it's the pace that you move the ball is more important than the pace of players. I have always disliked the use of tactical substitutes and think it should have been restricted to the professional game. There can't be anything much worse than being a sub for a Sunday morning game at your local park, I know from bitter experience and it's a warning when to hang up your boots.

Bingo.

 

[Aldo]

Having the pace of Sterling, Oxo and Walker didn't seem to make England look particularly threatening last night. I think it's the pace that you move the ball is more important than the pace of players. I have always disliked the use of tactical substitutes and think it should have been restricted to the professional game. There can't be anything much worse than being a sub for a Sunday morning game at your local park, I know from bitter experience and it's a warning when to hang up your boots.

Yep - I was taught way back in school football that no player can run faster than a pass.

 

[alekaras]

Unless you have true impact players on the bench, subs are always going to be a crapshoot. So maybe Poch prefers to keep the quality players on longer exactly for this reason. Just a guess...

 

[awesome dawson]

I slightly agree about the Poch use of subs needing improvement. In games when we have a slight lead, I think Winks comes on or maybe Sissoko to shore things up, even though Sissoko needs to continue his improved form.

When we are chasing a game and everyone is fit I think it Llorente, Lamela or Son at the expense of a tired Dembele or Wanyama.

Otherwise if through an injury situation, it's a like for like full back wise with Davies and Trippier coming on for Aurier or Google.

CB wise it could be interesting. I expect Dier would fill in for Toby Sanchez or Verts.

I'm pretty content with our bench after this last window.

 

[Baleforce]

there's some interesting points on subs in a book called the numbers game, specifically the chapter on managing weakest links (hat tip @milo)

after research by Bret Myers across MLS, Bundesliga and the WC he suggests that aggressive earlier subs are required to change result but that if you are winning it doesn't really matter when you make them

I don't think Poch is doing much wrong, I just don't always agree with him on who the weakest link is at any given point, but seeing as he is in the hot seat, has years of experience as a player, a deep education in coaching and has had them all week in training I'm willing to accept that he might have a very very marginal advantage of understanding over me

as a fan I'm also more likely to be swayed by correlation and anecdotes, decisions are always easy in hindsight

 

[billyiddo]

I slightly agree about the Poch use of subs needing improvement. In games when we have a slight lead, I think Winks comes on or maybe Sissoko to shore things up, even though Sissoko needs to continue his improved form.

When we are chasing a game and everyone is fit I think it Llorente, Lamela or Son at the expense of a tired Dembele or Wanyama.

Otherwise if through an injury situation, it's a like for like full back wise with Davies and Trippier coming on for Aurier or Google.

CB wise it could be interesting. I expect Dier would fill in for Toby Sanchez or Verts.

I'm pretty content with our bench after this last window.

bringing Sanchez on for Dembele and allowing Dier to move in to midfield alongside Wanyama should help when we want to protect a lead, i imagine this will be a fairly common substitution this season - until a point arrives that Sanchez becomes first choice CB (should that happen)

chasing games we will have a choice of Winks/Son/Lamela(hopefully)Llorente and Janssen to bring on and effect change and on top of that we will have Sissoko Nkoudou and potentially Edwards as options.

i think written down that looks like a good set of options off the bench tbh

 

[alekaras]

I slightly agree about the Poch use of subs needing improvement. In games when we have a slight lead, I think Winks comes on or maybe Sissoko to shore things up, even though Sissoko needs to continue his improved form.

When we are chasing a game and everyone is fit I think it Llorente, Lamela or Son at the expense of a tired Dembele or Wanyama.

Otherwise if through an injury situation, it's a like for like full back wise with Davies and Trippier coming on for Aurier or Google.

CB wise it could be interesting. I expect Dier would fill in for Toby Sanchez or Verts.

I'm pretty content with our bench after this last window.

This Toby Sanchez dude sounds like quite a player. Dutch/Colombian, I take it?

 

[El Guepardo]

after research by Bret Myers across MLS, Bundesliga and the WC he suggests that aggressive earlier subs are required to change result but that if you are winning it doesn't really matter when you make them

It took him research to discover that?! Seems fairly obvious.

 

[Baleforce]

It took him research to discover that?! Seems fairly obvious.

always good to do the research, football has plenty of considered wisdoms that are actually false, look how excited people get when their team has a corner for example

 

[awesome dawson]

This Everton game is a prime example of Poch doing subs too late. Sissoko has been wasting space for 65 mins yet we've got Son on the bench.

 

[Jordinho]

The game died around 60 minutes. Why on earth could we not give some subs a chance of actually making an impression? There was no need to save them for time wasting later.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The game died around 60 minutes. Why on earth could we not give some subs a chance of actually making an impression? There was no need to save them for time wasting later.

Son has just flown in from the far east, Dembele's one game this week is Dortmund and Winks is still coming back from injury. Llorente for Kane is maybe the only sub that would have made sense at 70 mins.

 

[AdamB]

Son has just flown in from the far east, Dembele's one game this week is Dortmund and Winks is still coming back from injury. Llorente for Kane is maybe the only sub that would have made sense at 70 mins.

Bringing Dembele on seemed a bit odd when Winks was on the bench and considering Dembele's injury record - didn't seem to be any reason to take any risk for him. Will be interesting to see when Aurier and Llorente get a game; I suspect it will take 2-3 weeks whilst Poch gives them time to get used to the system