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Squad

braineclipse said:
Copied this over from the Roma thread (and removed the Roma game specifics).

Agreed that we're paying for previous poor squad building. Conte, Mourinho and late stage Pochettino period essentially developed no home grown players.

Had we signed another LB we would be in the same position as with Spence, unless it was a club trained player.

Had we not loaned Werner for example, registered Spence instead. Or just registered Spence instead of Werner we would be so short up front now. Son needs minutes off the pitch, that's just reality right now I think. We need that additional option wide left because he needs rotation.

The only real solution is developing academy players, along with signing younger players that can become home grown and club trained. But that takes time, and money. And some of that development time will probably have to happen here and not only out on loan.

Think we could see Bergvall loaned out in the second half of the season. But that only frees up space for Spence. Another new signing would need another slot. Then we'd have a similar headache next summer assuming Bergvall develops well enough to then be in our squad (as we hope).

You've said before tough decisions will be needed. I don't think loaning out Bergvall will be "tough enough".

Right now though the "tough decision" for me would be trust Bergvall, Gray, Spence and Moore (when back from illness). Then reevaluate come January. But I'd rather start making the tougher decisions in January than wait until the summer on transfers out (and following that transfers in).
Click to expand...
I find it nuts that we can’t name the same squad for Europe that we do in the league
That’s poor planning and a sign of those historical issues
 
braineclipse said:
Copied this over from the Roma thread (and removed the Roma game specifics).

Agreed that we're paying for previous poor squad building. Conte, Mourinho and late stage Pochettino period essentially developed no home grown players.

Had we signed another LB we would be in the same position as with Spence, unless it was a club trained player.

Had we not loaned Werner for example, registered Spence instead. Or just registered Spence instead of Werner we would be so short up front now. Son needs minutes off the pitch, that's just reality right now I think. We need that additional option wide left because he needs rotation.

The only real solution is developing academy players, along with signing younger players that can become home grown and club trained. But that takes time, and money. And some of that development time will probably have to happen here and not only out on loan.

Think we could see Bergvall loaned out in the second half of the season. But that only frees up space for Spence. Another new signing would need another slot. Then we'd have a similar headache next summer assuming Bergvall develops well enough to then be in our squad (as we hope).

You've said before tough decisions will be needed. I don't think loaning out Bergvall will be "tough enough".

Right now though the "tough decision" for me would be trust Bergvall, Gray, Spence and Moore (when back from illness). Then reevaluate come January. But I'd rather start making the tougher decisions in January than wait until the summer on transfers out (and following that transfers in).
Click to expand...
I certainly could get behind all that, but then everyone needed to temper expectations. I also fear lack of patience in such a move would cost Ange is job. But I'd be in!
 
braineclipse said:
Copied this over from the Roma thread (and removed the Roma game specifics).

Agreed that we're paying for previous poor squad building. Conte, Mourinho and late stage Pochettino period essentially developed no home grown players.

Had we signed another LB we would be in the same position as with Spence, unless it was a club trained player.

Had we not loaned Werner for example, registered Spence instead. Or just registered Spence instead of Werner we would be so short up front now. Son needs minutes off the pitch, that's just reality right now I think. We need that additional option wide left because he needs rotation.

The only real solution is developing academy players, along with signing younger players that can become home grown and club trained. But that takes time, and money. And some of that development time will probably have to happen here and not only out on loan.

Think we could see Bergvall loaned out in the second half of the season. But that only frees up space for Spence. Another new signing would need another slot. Then we'd have a similar headache next summer assuming Bergvall develops well enough to then be in our squad (as we hope).

You've said before tough decisions will be needed. I don't think loaning out Bergvall will be "tough enough".

Right now though the "tough decision" for me would be trust Bergvall, Gray, Spence and Moore (when back from illness). Then reevaluate come January. But I'd rather start making the tougher decisions in January than wait until the summer on transfers out (and following that transfers in).
Click to expand...

I think Lankshear should have started against Fulham. We've seen ample times that Son, Werner and Johnson is the most unbalanced and toothless frontline we have. We needed someone in the trio who would receive ball to feet - either a target man or an direct wide player. We should have been braver.
 
braineclipse said:
Perhaps Ange thought those 16 year old were the best players to pick... Not necessarily the best here and now, but those that most deserved it and would be most boosted in their development by being picked.

He probably couldn't say that, but in a way picking Reguilon as he did says more about how short we are than any 16 year old being included.

On our squad... Spence, Gray, Bergvall, Lankshear, Werner (though he started against Fulham). Those are pretty much the squad players we have available now I think... Time for one or two of them to step up...
Click to expand...

More likely Ange, Wayne and Stuart got together and discussed what to do with the mix of all the seniors, U21's and U18's through these fixtures. Our U21s had games on the 29 Nov, 3 Dec and 6 Dec, whilst not having a game since early Nov. The U18's played a week apart of the 23 and 30 Nov and have an 8 day gap until the 8 Dec. I'm sure they discussed the trade-offs of going for the most senior 1st team match day squad versus padding it with the real youngsters.

As an example, a player like Dorrington needed 90 mins and got exactly that on Friday evening. Both Ange and Wayne need a fit Dorrington in case something happens to Davies and Dragu. 16 year old Malachi Hardy got his day out but I doubt he's really our 5th choice centre half whilst others are out on loan.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I find it nuts that we can’t name the same squad for Europe that we do in the league
That’s poor planning and a sign of those historical issues
Click to expand...

It's UEFA being over-empowered again. When you think about it the 25 squad system is simply 17 + 8.

UEFA should have absolutely no governance in deciding the formation of the 8. If they tick the box for homegrown in our country under our FA rules then they should just accept it. If our FA allow U21's who have spent less than 2 years at our club to be free-picks, then so should UEFA.

Nobody ever gave UEFA those decision rights. They just took them, like they have 45% of the broadcasting TV revenues, with their average 150k euro salaries.
 
thfcsteff said:
I certainly could get behind all that, but then everyone needed to temper expectations. I also fear lack of patience in such a move would cost Ange is job. But I'd be in!
Click to expand...
#Angein

Some people are frustrated that Ange is being stubborn, I want Ange to be exactly as stubborn as he feels is right.
Gutter Boy said:
I think Lankshear should have started against Fulham. We've seen ample times that Son, Werner and Johnson is the most unbalanced and toothless frontline we have. We needed someone in the trio who would receive ball to feet - either a target man or an direct wide player. We should have been braver.
Click to expand...
Would be interesting to know if that was a close decision or not. Going by Lankshear not coming on until the last minutes and only after they had gone to 10 men and then only after Gray picked up a knock I think not very close.

Essentially Lankshear is probably seen by Ange as being some way off being ready to start PL games.
 

Dan Kilpatrick (@dankp.bsky.social)

A third of the way into the League season and Gray, Bergvall & Spence have played a combined 162 minutes of top-flight football. As injuries pile-up, Postecoglou's understandable use of his younger players is adding to the strain on a stretched squad. Piece...
bsky.app bsky.app
 
How years of bad planning has left us with a tiny squad

Look at our Premier League squad
We can fit another 6 senior players in here

Screenshot 2024-12-14 at 00.25.10.png

But why don't we?
Because the European squad is full

Screenshot 2024-12-14 at 00.32.31.png

We have no club trained players really. That reduces the size of the squad.
In comparison Arsenal have Saka, Martinelli and Saliba as club trained.
Their 3rd keeper is an 18 year old that qualifies as List B.
We are naming a 3rd and 4th choice keeper in the squad.
Pape Sarr would be club trained if he had joined Tottenham immediately on signing.
Spurs messed up by letting him stay in France on loan.

Signing 18 year old players is the long term fix for this.
Bergvall and Gray will be both club trained (needs 3 seasons) for the 2027/28 season, list B (needs 2 seasons) for the 2026/27 season.
Min-hyeok Yang will be club trained in January 2028 and list B January 2027.
Luka Vuskovic will be club trained in for the 2028/29 season and list B for the 2027/28 season.
Wilson Odobert joined at 19 and will only ever be Association trained.

In the short term there is a case for signing players just for the Premier League squad that just aren't in the European squad
Should the European squad dictate everything?
 
Modric THFC said:
How years of bad planning has left us with a tiny squad

Look at our Premier League squad
We can fit another 6 senior players in here

View attachment 18233

But why don't we?
Because the European squad is full

View attachment 18234

We have no club trained players really. That reduces the size of the squad.
In comparison Arsenal have Saka, Martinelli and Saliba as club trained.
Their 3rd keeper is an 18 year old that qualifies as List B.
We are naming a 3rd and 4th choice keeper in the squad.
Pape Sarr would be club trained if he had joined Tottenham immediately on signing.
Spurs messed up by letting him stay in France on loan.

Signing 18 year old players is the long term fix for this.
Bergvall and Gray will be both club trained (needs 3 seasons) for the 2027/28 season, list B (needs 2 seasons) for the 2026/27 season.
Min-hyeok Yang will be club trained in January 2028 and list B January 2027.
Luka Vuskovic will be club trained in for the 2028/29 season and list B for the 2027/28 season.
Wilson Odobert joined at 19 and will only ever be Association trained.

In the short term there is a case for signing players just for the Premier League squad that just aren't in the European squad
Should the European squad dictate everything?
Click to expand...
Pape was registered with us and loaned back so he would qualify with your logic
I know he isnt classed as HG because of the EU rules but Saliba is …
But the logic your saying is right
IMG_0389.png
 
Tottenham's staff messed up with Sarr.
You need to know these rules backwards and all the loopholes.
They also hoped Doherty was association trained, he wasn't.
You can't just hope.

It's incompetence for a company of that size.

Arsenal knew the rules and loopholes and used them.
 
Modric THFC said:
Tottenham's staff messed up with Sarr.
You need to know these rules backwards and all the loopholes.
They also hoped Doherty was association trained, he wasn't.
You can't just hope.

It's incompetence for a company of that size.

Arsenal knew the rules and loopholes and used them.
Click to expand...

Sadly, i think for a while the football expertise has played second fiddle to the property and real estate expertise in the priority list at THFC..
 
Modric THFC said:
Tottenham's staff messed up with Sarr.
You need to know these rules backwards and all the loopholes.
They also hoped Doherty was association trained, he wasn't.
You can't just hope.

It's incompetence for a company of that size.

Arsenal knew the rules and loopholes and used them.
Click to expand...
Sarr was never an EU citizen so it would never be HG but I can’t work out why he isn’t club trained
He was registered with the club
 
Modric THFC said:
How years of bad planning has left us with a tiny squad

Look at our Premier League squad
We can fit another 6 senior players in here

View attachment 18233

But why don't we?
Because the European squad is full

View attachment 18234

We have no club trained players really. That reduces the size of the squad.
In comparison Arsenal have Saka, Martinelli and Saliba as club trained.
Their 3rd keeper is an 18 year old that qualifies as List B.
We are naming a 3rd and 4th choice keeper in the squad.
Pape Sarr would be club trained if he had joined Tottenham immediately on signing.
Spurs messed up by letting him stay in France on loan.

Signing 18 year old players is the long term fix for this.
Bergvall and Gray will be both club trained (needs 3 seasons) for the 2027/28 season, list B (needs 2 seasons) for the 2026/27 season.
Min-hyeok Yang will be club trained in January 2028 and list B January 2027.
Luka Vuskovic will be club trained in for the 2028/29 season and list B for the 2027/28 season.
Wilson Odobert joined at 19 and will only ever be Association trained.

In the short term there is a case for signing players just for the Premier League squad that just aren't in the European squad
Should the European squad dictate everything?
Click to expand...
This is what happens when you massively underinvest in your youth department for several years.

The problem should be temporary though and sort itself out in a couple of years time, both due to some of the younger players that we have again been signing since Paratici came back to the club and also due the fact that we have some good players coming through from the academy structure that Paratici also went some way to addressing.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Isn't home grown and club trained the same thing?!?
Click to expand...

No.

PL squad is just home grown.
But for European squads you have association trained and club trained.

Association trained is anyone who came through the youth system under the English FA. Club trained needs to be from your academy (more to it than just that, but that's the simple outline)
 
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