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Son Heung-Min

But that's two very specific things

- Is he who he was 3 years ago? no, is he still a very good player? yes
- Do we and him need to adapt to get the best out of him? yes

Biggest fudging indictment of Ange is him putting the brakes on Son shooting from edge of box ...
Even when he has shot from the edge of the box it's been a huge drop off from his shooting of a couple of years ago.
Do you really think he has the ability to adapt? At his best it was a lot to do with doing things at speed and insane shooting ability. Once these drop off I don't see anything else in his game that he can rely on. His first touch is average at best and his passing is decent but not of a standard to compensate for what he's lost.
 
But that's two very specific things

- Is he who he was 3 years ago? no, is he still a very good player? yes
- Do we and him need to adapt to get the best out of him? yes

Biggest fudging indictment of Ange is him putting the brakes on Son shooting from edge of box ...
Sonny is shooting from the edge of the box
The souse is his shots are now weak as tinkle
 
Even when he has shot from the edge of the box it's been a huge drop off from his shooting of a couple of years ago.
Do you really think he has the ability to adapt? At his best it was a lot to do with doing things at speed and insane shooting ability. Once these drop off I don't see anything else in his game that he can rely on. His first touch is average at best and his passing is decent but not of a standard to compensate for what he's lost.

Yes, I do believe he can adapt, his output for his national team has nowhere near the drop off.

His shooting has been affected by, 1. He's been told that Ange perfers to play into box (he said so last year at some point), 2/ Ange's system cause so much congestion in the places he would likely want to shoot.

Look at the numbers below, that's this season, in this brick side ... modern players who's bodies are still good can play later and later with some adaptation. Son can still see the assist/pass, still two footed, still can run into space and we know there is a lethal finisher in there.

big-chances-created-and-open-play-chances-created-in-pl-24-v0-0he2qbnpjipe1.jpg
 
Yes, I do believe he can adapt, his output for his national team has nowhere near the drop off.

His shooting has been affected by, 1. He's been told that Ange perfers to play into box (he said so last year at some point), 2/ Ange's system cause so much congestion in the places he would likely want to shoot.

Look at the numbers below, that's this season, in this brick side ... modern players who's bodies are still good can play later and later with some adaptation. Son can still see the assist/pass, still two footed, still can run into space and we know there is a lethal finisher in there.

big-chances-created-and-open-play-chances-created-in-pl-24-v0-0he2qbnpjipe1.jpg
He is still shooting from outside the box, it's just not as effective as it was, so it's not just down to Ange. He set ridicously high standards for it in previous years so the drop off stands out more for him. Big chances created is about as useful as assists as a stat. It can be a simple 2 yard pass like Jan for Son to beat 5 or 6 players agains Burnley or it can be a VdV running the length of the pitch and putting it across the goal face for a tap in. They are both counted the same.
The side might be brick overall but we're in the top 4 for goals scored, so I'd expect Son to have decent assists and contribute with a decent amount of goals. His goal scoring has dropped off a cliff and was what made him such a great player. His assists are still decent.

As for his output for his national team, if he couldn't perform well against league two standard teams it would be an even bigger concern.

I hope I'm wrong but for me the most he will be under any decent manager is a bench player to come on for the last 20 mins.
 
Yes, I do believe he can adapt, his output for his national team has nowhere near the drop off.

His shooting has been affected by, 1. He's been told that Ange perfers to play into box (he said so last year at some point), 2/ Ange's system cause so much congestion in the places he would likely want to shoot.

Look at the numbers below, that's this season, in this brick side ... modern players who's bodies are still good can play later and later with some adaptation. Son can still see the assist/pass, still two footed, still can run into space and we know there is a lethal finisher in there.

big-chances-created-and-open-play-chances-created-in-pl-24-v0-0he2qbnpjipe1.jpg
You have a hard on every day for whinging about all things Ange. Here's a newsflash, not everything is down to him - the facts are he has been on the decline for sometime. He is visibly slower, not as sharp and it was his speed and sharpness that allowed him to create a half yard of space to get his shots off. Now he doesn't have that sharpness he is more predictable and doesn't get his shot off as much, and when he does his shots aren't what they were.

He's approaching 33 years old and naturally isn't the player he was when his game was so much about speed. You can make it to be about Ange as much as you want but it's really not, and for where we want to be he is not good enough to be in our starting lineup regardless of manager.....
 
Seems nobody is fussed that Son is out.
Ange’s tactics do not suit him.
He still has plenty to offer in the right system.

Is it weird that the club captain hasn’t travelled to our biggest game of the season? I seem to remember Harry being in the stands for the parts of our CL run to the final that he wasn’t fit for.
 
You have a hard on every day for whinging about all things Ange. Here's a newsflash, not everything is down to him - the facts are he has been on the decline for sometime. He is visibly slower, not as sharp and it was his speed and sharpness that allowed him to create a half yard of space to get his shots off. Now he doesn't have that sharpness he is more predictable and doesn't get his shot off as much, and when he does his shots aren't what they were.

He's approaching 33 years old and naturally isn't the player he was when his game was so much about speed. You can make it to be about Ange as much as you want but it's really not, and for where we want to be he is not good enough to be in our starting lineup regardless of manager.....

I have an issue because the manager does not play to the players he has

- You have an elite finisher with two feet that yes, is well past best by date, but the answer isn't stick him as far out on the wing as you can and expect him to do things that weren't ever his best attributes
- Just like Solanke is a poacher that's been turned into a focal point/workhorse and doesn't actually score anymore
- Just like Bentancur & Maddison having roles that are fudge knows what, but don't get the best out of them.

Funny how it's easier for some people to believe the entire side is brick vs. manager
 
Is it weird that the club captain hasn’t travelled to our biggest game of the season? I seem to remember Harry being in the stands for the parts of our CL run to the final that he wasn’t fit for.
Indeed. I think it's a bit weird. Especially how positive Sonny is viewed amongst the group.
Wild guesses....maybe his foot needed a surgical procedure (even minor)....maybe he's not injured and will pop out of the kit laundry basket?
 
I have an issue because the manager does not play to the players he has

- You have an elite finisher with two feet that yes, is well past best by date, but the answer isn't stick him as far out on the wing as you can and expect him to do things that weren't ever his best attributes
- Just like Solanke is a poacher that's been turned into a focal point/workhorse and doesn't actually score anymore
- Just like Bentancur & Maddison having roles that are fudge knows what, but don't get the best out of them.

Funny how it's easier for some people to believe the entire side is brick vs. manager
Who said the entire side is brick? We are discussing Son and he's no longer good enough for where we want to be. Hes not a CF, so he either plays on the wing or not at all. He's not good enough anymore for us to just accommodate him and play him wherever suits....
 
I have an issue because the manager does not play to the players he has

- You have an elite finisher with two feet that yes, is well past best by date, but the answer isn't stick him as far out on the wing as you can and expect him to do things that weren't ever his best attributes
- Just like Solanke is a poacher that's been turned into a focal point/workhorse and doesn't actually score anymore
- Just like Bentancur & Maddison having roles that are fudge knows what, but don't get the best out of them.

Funny how it's easier for some people to believe the entire side is brick vs. manager
Both can be true, the player can have dropped off, no longer be of the required quality as a starter, and at the same the manager is crap.
 
Who said the entire side is brick? We are discussing Son and he's no longer good enough for where we want to be. Hes not a CF, so he either plays on the wing or not at all. He's not good enough anymore for us to just accommodate him and play him wherever suits....

Look at main page? Vic is brick, Romero is brick, Solanke is brick, Bentancur, Maddison & Bissouma is brick, Son is brick?

My opinion is at this stage, no real evaluation of a player can be done in this current team, the system is so dysfunctional that it's almost impossible to baseline individual performances

There needs to be a short to medium term replacement plan for Son, obvious, but to the above point, the he's washed up is hyperbole
 
Look at main page? Vic is brick, Romero is brick, Solanke is brick, Bentancur, Maddison & Bissouma is brick, Son is brick?

My opinion is at this stage, no real evaluation of a player can be done in this current team, the system is so dysfunctional that it's almost impossible to baseline individual performances

There needs to be a short to medium term replacement plan for Son, obvious, but to the above point, the he's washed up is hyperbole
Stop projecting, no one has said any of those players are brick - just that they aren't that good. Last night highlights it, Romero and Bentancur were great - they are capable of great games but then don't do it consistently and they were the same before Ange came along.

As for Son it's funny, I didn't see Tel having any issues coming inside and getting his shot away - just as he has done in previous games. The fact is Son no longer has the speed to do it, and like it or lump it that is not on Ange and Son has just regressed massively over the past two seasons....
 
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Stop projecting, no one has said any of those players are brick - just that they aren't that good. Last night highlights it, Romero and Bentancur were great - they are capable of great games but then don't do it consistently and they were the same before Ange came along.

As for Son it's funny, I didn't see Tel having any issues coming inside and getting his shot away - just as he has done in previous games. The fact is Son no longer has the speed to do it, and like it or lump it that is not on Ange and Son has just regressed massively over the past two seasons....

Did son not have the same issue under conte and the perception was that conte had told him not to shoot?
 
Stop projecting, no one has said any of those players are brick - just that they aren't that good. Last night highlights it, Romero and Bentancur were great - they are capable of great games but then don't do it consistently and they were the same before Ange came along.

As for Son it's funny, I didn't see Tel having any issues coming inside and getting his shot away - just as he has done in previous games. The fact is Son no longer has the speed to do it, and like it or lump it that is not on Ange and Son has just regressed massively over the past two seasons....
Get the impression Son is way more targeted since Kane left because if he is allowed space he is lethal.
 
Stop projecting, no one has said any of those players are brick - just that they aren't that good. Last night highlights it, Romero and Bentancur were great - they are capable of great games but then don't do it consistently and they were the same before Ange came along.

As for Son it's funny, I didn't see Tel having any issues coming inside and getting his shot away - just as he has done in previous games. The fact is Son no longer has the speed to do it, and like it or lump it that is not on Ange and Son has just regressed massively over the past two seasons....
Funny thing is I was in the pub with a pool fan and Everton fan and they think son is still great
People remember what they have seen and forget what they are actually seeing
Son hasn’t got that pace to get that separation anymore and that’s his game
The rest of his tools then look much less effective because they aren’t as strong as maybe we thought they were
As I said previously he was the most elite finisher in the world. Now he just the ball so weakly so what’s changed…
 
Stop projecting, no one has said any of those players are brick - just that they aren't that good. Last night highlights it, Romero and Bentancur were great - they are capable of great games but then don't do it consistently and they were the same before Ange came along.

As for Son it's funny, I didn't see Tel having any issues coming inside and getting his shot away - just as he has done in previous games. The fact is Son no longer has the speed to do it, and like it or lump it that is not on Ange and Son has just regressed massively over the past two seasons....
But it is on Ange for not realizing this is the case and continuing to play him on the wing when he's just not suited to that role anymore and especially not in the Ange system.
 
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