Slaughterhouses

[monkeybarry]

We are living in a time where mortality is low (in the first world), there's food, access to medicine/treatments and welfare programs, etc. etc. I am all for welfare, social safety nets and universal health care (something that still alludes our country). However, with all this comes a responsibility from every citizen to society as a whole. The truth is, people are dumb as rocks and can't be bothered to contemplate the consequences of their actions. They are living in the now, for themselves, and couldn't give a rat's about anyone else, including any offspring they beget.
Birth control? nothxkbye


Here's the op-ed: NYT Opinion piece: We're eating less meat. Why?

are you saying you are pro or anti birth control? (maybe thats for another thread!)

 

[monkeybarry]

We are living in a time where mortality is low (in the first world), there's food, access to medicine/treatments and welfare programs, etc. etc. I am all for welfare, social safety nets and universal health care (something that still alludes our country). However, with all this comes a responsibility from every citizen to society as a whole. The truth is, people are dumb as rocks and can't be bothered to contemplate the consequences of their actions. They are living in the now, for themselves, and couldn't give a rat's about anyone else, including any offspring they beget.
Birth control? nothxkbye

Oh. You were talking about livestock... interestingly, there's no fast food out there that's actually good for you or mostly comprised of fruits and vegetables. These sorts of organic health stores are wicked expensive. There are very few alternatives for lower-income individuals/families to afford eating properly, let alone not going hungry. Perhaps if government stopped subsidizing LARGE corporate factory farm operations, and instead focused on subsidizing local farmers/producers, it would bring us a long way from eating mass-produced factory meat to something a bit more natural, and even then, meat should be a supplement, not the main course. Plus, Americans are fat and eat a lot. We're a gluttonous society, unashamed by our excess while others around the world starve and die of malnourishment. I think some of you are beginning to see the dim view I have of my own country. Again, I generalize and I know lots of decent people, but they are too few and far between.

Here's the op-ed: NYT Opinion piece: We're eating less meat. Why?

agree with the centement of the above re; food.
however i slightly disagree with the bit i highlighted - there is a choice (although maybe a lack of education, combined with a overabundance of marketing) for lower income families, but i requires moving away from pre-prepared food stuffs.

the US has a wildely diverse argriculture. everytime i have spent time in the US grocery stores (CA - Walmart, Safeway, etc) there has always been a decent ammount of potatoes and fresh veg (althoguh not the diversity i expected)...........so the produce is certainly there.

as i beleive you (or someone) said earlier in the thread, people can also talk with their wallet and not buy the crap, but it takes the will and mindset to acheive it.

i do beleive you are correct re the US (and "1st world") mindset. but i do get the impression from all my conversations and experience with the US (my wife is from CA and we plan to move there in a few years - however the social and political attitudes may change that)

maybe it different in more remote parts of the US or poorer places (im using Nor-Cal as my reference, which may be broke as F, but certainly isnt poor)

as far as Govt policy goes - i do worry for the future of the US if the Govt (and population) doesnt adopt more of a socialist attitude. There is only so long a pure capitalist society can be sustainable as both a global economic force and also to support its population.

That said, Taco Bell does taste GOOOOOOOOD

 

[scaramanga]

What are you, some kind of brain scientist?
I used to work in a research lab that did neuroimaging. We had a pretty large autism studies group within the lab, which was great for me as a learning experience. It's reassuring knowing that there are people with incredible mental aptitude putting their skills to work towards ideals and correcting moral issues in society.

No, he's a gullible fool.

He's our resident cider-swilling, moon-barking, tinfoil hat-wearing lunatic - ask him about the healing effects of crystals one day.

Gifter, it seems will believe anything he's told as long as it's not tainted by such things as evidence-based understanding or common sense.

 

[papaspur]

are you saying you are pro or anti birth control? (maybe thats for another thread!)

Sorry about the ambiguity there; I am definitely for birth control seeing as how there's enough mouth-breathers out there
Yeah, maybe we should start up a social issues thread or something like that. I'm also glad to get people's opinions from outside the US on various problems, both national and international.

Sure, we have produce, but a lot of it is sprayed with pesticides, insecticides, given growth hormones... and I believe the FDA simply lacks the power to conduct thorough research on the effects of all these additives. Given, this can be extremely difficult for longer-term effects, but nevertheless, big aggro is in bed with our political system and therefore have the power to bypass certain regulations, or not get punished when found infringing upon said regulations/laws.
Also, the coasts of America differ vastly to the, shall we say bland heartland. I am obviously liberal, and you'll find lots of liberal, open-minded people in CA or NY. I have no problem with the word socialism, but conservatives here think socialism is the second coming of communism, when in truth, we have many 'socialist' policies in effect already. It's simply an ass-backwards way of thinking, and I use the term 'thinking' here lightly since the media does most of their thinking for them.
In fact, I think that if people stopped and contemplated their decisions and the impact they're having on the world around them, we might be better off. But like I said, some people only think with their dingdongs in the here and now. The consequences of not using a condom or other form of birth control don't matter because I can do whatever I want, when I want and I'll be damned if I have to worry about this in 9 months. Plus, it's rare to see people put stock in education here.

I'm so out of touch with the everyday, average American. For such a Christian country, we really are a bunch of assholes

 

[papaspur]

No, he's a gullible fool.

He's our resident cider-swilling, moon-barking, tinfoil hat-wearing lunatic - ask him about the healing effects of crystals one day.

Gifter, it seems will believe anything he's told as long as it's not tainted by such things as evidence-based understanding or common sense.

He's right about KFC, though. Speaking of which (and I forgot to bring it up earlier), but is there anywhere else in the world where you can get both KFC AND Taco Bell in the same place (excluding the mall)?
There was also some beef (hardy har har) against Taco Bell for using mostly... not-meat in their 'meat'.

Which incidentally led me to this article in Gizmodo, written yesterday: http://gizmodo.com/5742413/this-is-what-really-hides-in-taco-bells-beef

Back to the original topic of this post...
All I will say is that there is not enough evidence out there in terms of whether vaccinations cause autism or not (I believe that's what Gifter is getting at here). The neural pathway fixation bit does not really make much sense to me, and to be perfectly frank, I don't think anyone here can purport to how the brain works, or exactly how it differs between 'those on the spectrum' and 'controls/normals'. Also, watching Rainman doesn't make anyone an expert on autism disorders...

The first minute of this South Park clip is hilarious and kind of relevant, just to lighten the mood.
[video]http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/398748/a-new-patient[/video]

 

[Gifter]

I don't drink cider (or any alcohol except on rare occasions, but do regularly take ACV), don't wear tinfoil or most of the gumpf Scara suggests. Nor am I a brain scientist, but dare to think outside his (and most peoples to be fair) box.

Papa;
It is clear that distinctive neural pathways (from a little reading and study) in Autistic folks become much more firmly estabished, no? hence terming it fixation.

Eg. Once an autistic person defines a behavioural pattern which is pleasing, or displeasing, it is far more difficult for those patterns to be changed (for whatever reason).

My belief (supposition) is that this is very much linked to myelin damage, which Mercury based vaccine preservatives (amongst other things) cause. Hence this damage may cause particularly strong areas (and weak) which are much more prone to profound development, whereas other areas simply cannot be developed as the Myelin Sheath has been damaged (or failed to develop). Of course depending on the level of damage and the subjects natural (or nurtured) biological abilities to withstand such things.

As Temple Grandin might say 'no less, just different'.

Anyway, sorry to take this rather good thread off course somewhat.

 

[Gifter]

PS. I love the fact that my nearest town Blandford Forum has no fast food chains at all (though Costa did open recently much to my chargrin and they do have a Prezzo which is almost one I guess).

 

[papaspur]

I don't drink cider (or any alcohol except on rare occasions, but do regularly take ACV), don't wear tinfoil or most of the gumpf Scara suggests. Nor am I a brain scientist, but dare to think outside his (and most peoples to be fair) box.

Papa;
It is clear that distinctive neural pathways (from a little reading and study) in Autistic folks become much more firmly estabished, no? hence terming it fixation.

Eg. Once an autistic person defines a behavioural pattern which is pleasing, or displeasing, it is far more difficult for those patterns to be changed (for whatever reason).

My belief (supposition) is that this is very much linked to myelin damage, which Mercury based vaccine preservatives (amongst other things) cause. Hence this damage may cause particularly strong areas (and weak) which are much more prone to profound development, whereas other areas simply cannot be developed as the Myelin Sheath has been damaged (or failed to develop). Of course depending on the level of damage and the subjects natural (or nurtured) biological abilities to withstand such things.

As Temple Grandin might say 'no less, just different'.

Anyway, sorry to take this rather good thread off course somewhat.

OK, just to respond to this last post because... well, there are certain things said that make people that have worked in science shake their heads.

For one, you can't cite as evidence a few studies that have asked questions about the effects of vaccinations on young children.
Secondly, these disorders are incredibly complex, and therefore could stem from a whole range of issues. To pinpoint a single source (Thimerosal) as a cause of Autism without mentioning other factors such as genetics severely understates the depth of this disorder. Also, the language you use is vague when describing myelin sheaths and how the brain develops (profound development). I'm not an expert in Autism (I studied visual pathways, reading, dyslexia), and even on top of that, I'm not a doctor or a grad student, so I'm not qualified to speak about any of this. I can only speak about general scientific practices and fallacies. If you still want to discuss this issue (and I'd be more than happy to), I would suggest we start a science thread or something of the like.

 

[Gifter]

OK, just to respond to this last post because... well, there are certain things said that make people that have worked in science shake their heads.

For one, you can't cite as evidence a few studies that have asked questions about the effects of vaccinations on young children.
Secondly, these disorders are incredibly complex, and therefore could stem from a whole range of issues. To pinpoint a single source (Thimerosal) as a cause of Autism without mentioning other factors such as genetics severely understates the depth of this disorder. Also, the language you use is vague when describing myelin sheaths and how the brain develops (profound development). I'm not an expert in Autism (I studied visual pathways, reading, dyslexia), and even on top of that, I'm not a doctor or a grad student, so I'm not qualified to speak about any of this. I can only speak about general scientific practices and fallacies. If you still want to discuss this issue (and I'd be more than happy to), I would suggest we start a science thread or something of the like.

I didn't cite one thing as the cause, or cite any study, just my belief as clearly stated, I did cite genetics and environment as contributors.

Alot of doctors do not vaccinate their children, fact. Which does not prove anything, but belies the claims that there is agreement, in medicine or science, on this issue.

You and I have developed beliefs on this issue, for folks who have not here is the google search 'mercury myelin sheath', they can look at whichever studies they like and form their own views from that, to say we are not qualified to discuss this, when we are expected to agree to its administration to our babies, is absurd IMO.

http://www.google.co.uk/#q=mercury+....,cf.osb&fp=3d28f74a400871c5&biw=1280&bih=603

Here is a video on this subject from university of calgary;

http://movies.commons.ucalgary.ca/s...&screenwidth=512&screenheight=400&curtains=no

(quick time required)


Anyway agreed this is not for this thread, sorry no offense meant papa, just differing views.

 

[scaramanga]

Back to the original topic of this post...
All I will say is that there is not enough evidence out there in terms of whether vaccinations cause autism or not

Statistics are a funny thing aren't they? They can be described to fit any agenda (it's clear you don't have one btw).

I could repeat what you've said thus:
There is absolutely no evidence of any kind to suggest a causal link between autism and vaccinations. In fact, there's no evidence of any coincidental, non-causal link either.

Gifter's statements could be represented as:
"Many people have vaccinations. Many people have autism. Some people have both". Which is as ridiculous as me suggesting that some people suffering from autism are called David, therefore don't call your kid David because they'll be autistic.

It reveals a really huge problem in medicine, that doctors and journalists simply don't understand statistics properly. This lack of understanding allows Gifter et al to take part in a multi-$bn industry of snake oil sales.

 

[Notmegov]

I kill all my own ducks and chickens, and will not eat any that have not been done by myself.

 

[Gifter]

Statistics are a funny thing aren't they? They can be described to fit any agenda (it's clear you don't have one btw).

I could repeat what you've said thus:
There is absolutely no evidence of any kind to suggest a causal link between autism and vaccinations. In fact, there's no evidence of any coincidental, non-causal link either.

Gifter's statements could be represented as:
"Many people have vaccinations. Many people have autism. Some people have both". Which is as ridiculous as me suggesting that some people suffering from autism are called David, therefore don't call your kid David because they'll be autistic.

It reveals a really huge problem in medicine, that doctors and journalists simply don't understand statistics properly. This lack of understanding allows Gifter et al to take part in a multi-$bn industry of snake oil sales.

Perhaps you might like to comment on this video;

[video=youtube;VImCpWzXJ_w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VImCpWzXJ_w[/video]

Pretty irrefutable IMO, not proof but clear evidence of a link between mercury and neural damage.

It's a preservative in vaccines, not vital to the efficacy of vaccines anyway (ie there are plenty of alternatives).

 

[papaspur]

Statistics are a funny thing aren't they? They can be described to fit any agenda (it's clear you don't have one btw).

I could repeat what you've said thus:
There is absolutely no evidence of any kind to suggest a causal link between autism and vaccinations. In fact, there's no evidence of any coincidental, non-causal link either.

Gifter's statements could be represented as:
"Many people have vaccinations. Many people have autism. Some people have both". Which is as ridiculous as me suggesting that some people suffering from autism are called David, therefore don't call your kid David because they'll be autistic.

It reveals a really huge problem in medicine, that doctors and journalists simply don't understand statistics properly. This lack of understanding allows Gifter et al to take part in a multi-$bn industry of snake oil sales.

This is one of the most common fallacies in science: causality
I'll let wikipedia do the talking, since I should be doing work now

 

[Gifter]

Perhaps you might like to comment on this video;

[video=youtube;VImCpWzXJ_w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VImCpWzXJ_w[/video]

Pretty irrefutable IMO, not proof but clear evidence of a link between mercury and neural damage.

It's a preservative in vaccines, not vital to the efficacy of vaccines anyway (ie there are plenty of alternatives).

Scara, Scara, wherefore art thou...

Thought I'd bump this in case you missed it...

Quite interested isn't it?

 

[yiddo2786]

Just so you know, wherefore means "why". That one annoys me a little. You may now carry on talking nonsense.

 

[papaspur]

Last time I checked, vaccinations were not administered directly into the brain. That video simply shows what happens when neurons come into direct contact with mercury.

When reviewing scientific studies, you cannot narrow your focus to some studies while selectively ignoring others. You must see which institution/university the study was conducted at and which journal it was published in, and it of course must be peer-reviewed. It's also good to know where the funding for that particular study came from.

This is just like climate-change, except climate-change baffles me even more. Even if 1% of all articles published on climate change refute the claim, the jury is still somehow out on whether climate change is a hoax. I mostly blame the media for even entertaining this flimflam (that's how Fox News portrays it, at least... but they're fair and balanced, so you know they have to present both sides of a story even when one side is complete and utter horsetinkle). And that 1% of studies could have been funded by ExxonMobil, BP, Shell, et al.

Science is a slippery slope. Don't abuse it.

 

[Gifter]

Just so you know, wherefore means "why". That one annoys me a little. You may now carry on talking nonsense.

If you get annoyed by the misuse of 16th century english you should get out more.

If you've been on here a while you may have noticed, I don't give a f*ck about ridicule, wherefore, if I get one or two people thinking about certain things I'm happy. Better?

Did you watch the video? Any thoughts?

Thanks for keeping it at the top of the forum, another few people may watch it now and think before they load themselves with toxic poison.

 

[Gifter]

Last time I checked, vaccinations were not administered directly into the brain. That video simply shows what happens when neurons come into direct contact with mercury.

When reviewing scientific studies, you cannot narrow your focus to some studies while selectively ignoring others. You must see which institution/university the study was conducted at and which journal it was published in, and it of course must be peer-reviewed. It's also good to know where the funding for that particular study came from.

This is just like climate-change, except climate-change baffles me even more. Even if 1% of all articles published on climate change refute the claim, the jury is still somehow out on whether climate change is a hoax. I mostly blame the media for even entertaining this flimflam (that's how Fox News portrays it, at least... but they're fair and balanced, so you know they have to present both sides of a story even when one side is complete and utter horsetinkle). And that 1% of studies could have been funded by ExxonMobil, BP, Shell, et al.

Science is a slippery slope. Don't abuse it.

So now you are asserting that the preservative element of a vaccine does not circulate around the body? I guess you are unaware that neurons are not just in the brain? The video shows the damage to the Myelin Sheath clearly, which again is not just in the brain but the protective housing to the nervous system.

So we should believe the mountain of studies paid for by Eli Lilly that thimerosal is OK, but distrust those paid for by Exxon? Yet both have equally vested interests in keeping opinion on a certain track, whatever the truth. Maybe you should have thought that one through a little more.

Why do you need to talk in language such as 'you cannot', 'you must', are you a teacher?

'Science is a slippery slop, don't abuse it' what the hell does that mean?

You are new Papa, and don't resort to insults it appears, thank you for that. Likewise no personal offense meant.

 

[papaspur]

Hey, if you want to open up your skull and dump mercury into it, then yeah, I'd say that's probably a bad idea. And really, that's all that video showed (in snail neurons, mind you). But the scientific consensus is that no, vaccinations do not cause autism.

So, to go back on topic for once and for all...
Are any of you on the fence of eliminating meat from your diet, or were on the fence at some point?

I like to think of myself as an animal lover. My father is a hunter and he grew up in a farm, so he has no major problem going out into the wild and hunting game. However, we eat all the meat from the deer/turkey/game that he gets. He's a bit squeamish about killing his own animals on the small farm he has now. I don't think I could slaughter an animal unless it was out of necessity of survival. But as I said earlier, most of the civilized world never sees the animal that their meat comes from, even after it's been slaughtered and quartered. In the end, we get a shrink-wrapped "product" or "commodity" that is as far removed from the animal as possible. What I guess I'm trying to say is that I, as a consumer, try to be more conscientious of all the choices I make and the ethical ramifications of these choices.

 

[Leeds Spur]

Do they even use merury s an adjuvant anymore?

I looked into the MMR, (my daughter still has to have it done) and I don't have any concerns.

Andrew Wakefield was completely discredited.