Sick sick world what is wrong with people

[Kandi1977]

What do you think would happen if Israel destroyed all their weapons and stood down their military?

That would be a blessing, provided every one else did the same.
It's really quite astonishing that "the most intelligent creature on earth" still fight like cavemen over idiotic things like borders, religion and rase.
The world has never moved forward through wars. It's only cooperation and exchange of knowledge that moves us forward.

 

[scaramanga]

Saying that using military personnel to detain a 5 year is brutal, isn't subjective. If you have any sort of human sense or feeling, that is considered pretty much as a fact, not an subjective opinion.
But I'm aware that you posess none of that.

They were being gentle. The kids threw rocks at armed military - he was lucky not to get shot.

 

[scaramanga]

That would be a blessing, provided every one else did the same.
It's really quite astonishing that "the most intelligent creature on earth" still fight like cavemen over idiotic things like borders, religion and rase.

Nobody in the areas surrounding Israel would do the same - that's the entire problem (and likely the basis for your misunderstanding of the situation).

This isn't two sides fighting because the other one is still fighting. Israel is fighting because the other side's sky fairy told them Jews aren't allowed to exist.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I was going to write a longish reply to this but @Lost Mango has done it far better than I would have.

he is quite obviously bias and again @Lost Mango has highlighted some of his inaccuracies.

my biggest problem with the video is the truths he is deliberately leaving out.

for example he says that Jewish people were taxed more under Muslim rule - I’m assuming he means Ottoman rule. This is True, but what he leaves out is that all non Muslims were (supposedly to compensate for the ‘obligatory’ Muslim charity contribution that all Muslims are expected to make yearly). Related to this another TRUTH is that the ottomans specifically welcomed Jewish people to immigrate to the empire when they were being persecuted and slaughtered most notably during the Spanish Inquisition, but through different times in history as well.

This I’m sure you would agree is an important Truth that he omits in order to set a discourse in only one direction.

The non Muslims that also exists in Malaysia

 

[Kandi1977]

They were being gentle. The kids threw rocks at armed military - he was lucky not to get shot.

You're just being stupid. I'm done here. Good night and get well soon!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A genuine question. How much do you personally know about the regional history and extended context?
.

I know a tiny amount and some stuff from the bible.., so more creative writing I guess

id genuinely live to know some actual truth about that part of the world

in my, genuinely naive and blinkered head, we (the allies) kicked out the people living in the area now known as Israel to create somewhere for the Jewish people to create their own country. I assume the wealth comes from other countries via Jews paying “back to their homeland” some how but I really don’t know
That could all be wrong, partly wrong or even possibly correct. What is clear to me is there is no middle ground on the subject unfortunately

 

[Kandi1977]

Nobody in the areas surrounding Israel would do the same - that's the entire problem (and likely the basis for your misunderstanding of the situation).

This isn't two sides fighting because the other one is still fighting. Israel is fighting because the other side's sky fairy told them Jews aren't allowed to exist.

One final comment. Not related only to this, but in a wider sense. The world as a whole would benefit greatly if we stopped putting people onto groups like Jews, Muslims, Arabs, etc. We're just people!
If we could get that to be the basis all around the world, we'd come a long way!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

One final comment. Not related only to this, but in a wider sense. The world as a whole would benefit greatly if we stopped putting people onto groups like Jews, Muslims, Arabs, etc. We're just people!
If we could get that to be the basis all around the world, we'd come a long way!

That’s something else I don’t get
Why are politics governed by religion
Why do we have countries that are religious states in the modern world

i remember going to Malaysia and every non Muslim I spoke too brought up the subject. It was odd and not what I expected as it was a liberal place IMO.
But extra taxes for non Muslims
No ham or bacon… unless you smuggled it in (one restaurant did just that and was so proud)
The “Arabs” who were there (non locals) were so arrogant and also very dominant over their wives
It was a real mix
But… it was very welcoming to me and my wife as a tourist I have to say

 

[DTA]

The non Muslims that also exists in Malaysia

Malaysia still do that?

 

[dawaxman]

I don't know the circumstances that you're referring to with regards detaining 5 year olds but now seems an apt time to remind you all that since the 90's there have been ~90 separate suicide bomb attacks in Israel, with the perpetrators being young, old, male, female.... on behalf of hamas, PIJ or other terrorist cells

Before you point fingers at soldiers detaining children just imagine what it would be like for you, just a normal civilian going about your life, with the constant threat of suicide bombers

27 suicide bombers in 2002 alone

In bus stations, universities, restaurants, markets, clubs

Here's a link because I'm sure you'll deny it's true

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

And each of these suicide bombers have been claimed by hamas or PIJ etc, they've admitted to it, proudly

 

[thfcsteff]

I know a tiny amount and some stuff from the bible.., so more creative writing I guess

id genuinely live to know some actual truth about that part of the world

in my, genuinely naive and blinkered head, we (the allies) kicked out the people living in the area now known as Israel to create somewhere for the Jewish people to create their own country. I assume the wealth comes from other countries via Jews paying “back to their homeland” some how but I really don’t know
That could all be wrong, partly wrong or even possibly correct. What is clear to me is there is no middle ground on the subject unfortunately

Appreciate the answer, albeit I hadn't specifically asked you the question!

 

[thfcsteff]

One final comment. Not related only to this, but in a wider sense. The world as a whole would benefit greatly if we stopped putting people onto groups like Jews, Muslims, Arabs, etc. We're just people!
If we could get that to be the basis all around the world, we'd come a long way!

It's a glorious utopia but it will never be. I am most interested in radically accepting the situation we CURRENTLY find ourselves in, and how best to find peaceful resolution going forwards. I acknowledge the deep history, but unless we can use that to the positive, we need to focus on the 'now' IMO. Personally? I think that starts with having two sides equally committed to the concept of peace in the region for all innocent civilians, indeed, people. I personally do not believe that is the current situation (again, I am not ignoring history, I am working from a practical sense of what can be done right NOW in this seismic MOMENT).

There are several dangerous and highly unscrupulous players getting a high degree of agency and traction via this situation. That needs to be stopped.

FWIW, if I had the answers, I likely would not be typing this on my phone outside a cafe sipping a cappuccino; now there's some privilege for you!!!

 

[Lost Mango]

You make out that history is absolute. That every question has a right and wrong answer. You can have two different historical accounts with neither being false. Many of the things you flag up as ‘wrong’ are just a different interpretation. Most of your comments are: ‘yes that is true but…’ It all depends which kind of full picture you want to give. And that is where bias comes in. Historical arguments around this subject are just the same as contemporary ones: folks trying to prove their side. And largely futile. At least there is some depth and interest in the history. Most don’t have an appreciation of the complex history and most of the broad points made by this chap are fair and under appreciated.

You seemed to be making the point that archaeological findings of a Jewish ancient history in the area are not significant because the forefathers of Palestinians may not have had coins etc. at the time. I don’t think there is any doubt non Jewish peoples lived in the area. The point I think this guy was making was the significance of Isreal and Jerusalem to the Jewish people. I guess you are saying it might have been just as important to others but they were not as literate or didn’t leave their mark?

I could question most your comments for veracity. They are not absolute but interpretations that follow a bias. Which is what all history is!

Odd comment. History isn't absolute and I never claimed it was (despite you trying to find that claim somewhere as obviously my position doesn't apparently agree with what you want to take from it).Not every question has a right or wrong answer but there are certain evidences which either show one thing to be more likely than not and whilst not a science there is academic rigour applied to archaeology and history, it isn't just bias and thumb sucking - that is religion, economics and politics.

But his arguments and positions he was trying to establish were full of holes which I highlighted. There are areas of confirmed evidence that is fairly objective. No coins, no scripts pre 400BCE is verifiable as the current evidence stands.

There are equally as many non-Jewish archaeological excavations as there are Jewish. Neither Jewish nor non-Jewish had coins or literacy until more or less the same time. The bloke in the video was the one making the argument that no non-jewish artefacts were found, I was making the point that nothing different had been found for Jews than non-Jews, because in terms of cultural development they were all at the same stage.

I have hardly said 'yes that is sort of true ...' that many times in my response but where I have it was then followed by added the context of why his explanations of a basic fact (decline in jewish communities elsewhere, for example, is a true fact) are not accurate (not because of ethnic cleansing but because Jews moved to Israel in large number) so hardly aligns with your ambition to undermine all my points by saying it is down to what sort of picture you want to paint.

In terms of the point about the importance of Jerusalem I was responding to a specific point he made in trying to claim that it must matter more to the Jews than the Arabs because the Arabs had never made it their capital by again providing some simple context to why it has never been a capital of an extensive state due to its non-ideal political and economic positioning.

Please do question the veracity of my comments. Please do tell me which of the claims I have flagged up as 'wrong' are just my interpretations. Genuinely interested as I have tried to be as free from bias as my unconscious leanings would allow. How have I interpreted the fact that Herodotus mentioned 'Palestine' in 450BCE to suit my bias when video guy claimed there were no ancient mentions of the word prior to Roman occupation in 70BCE? There are either mentions of the word pre-Roman times or not. That is a fairly absolute situation, not an opinion, is it not?

 

[SpurMeUp]

@Lost Mango the video chaps point was there are no Jewish communities in the Middle East now. Isreal, he said is secular, in that there are mosques and Muslim (and Christian?) communities living in Isreal. His point was: the same is not true in other surrounding Arab nations and he listed the centers of former Jewish life that don’t exist now in places like Syria. Your point that some left for Isreal of their own accord is somewhat facetious. ‘Oh they were leaving anyway’

To be frank: that is more of a nonsense than anything that he said in his video. Communities with hundreds, if not thousands, of years of history in locals like Aleppo have not dwindled as people freely left because they wished to give up their lives, professions, communities and places of worship, to move to Isreal. They have been totally displaced. Trying to claim it was because Isreal advertised or attracted them is naive at best. That Jewish communities resist the magnetism of Israeli advertising in other parts of the world, shows this is a load of nonsense. And his point that Christian communities have also had a similar fate in the Middle East only backs up his point.

Jerusalem not being an Arab capital is black or white. It either was or was not. You outlined how it wasn’t particularly important as a city to Arabs. Which seems concurrent with his point.

Re. ‘Palestine’ this is an easy one. You’re conflating the mention of a region with a term for a people. I’m not minded to rewatch it but I believe he was referring to the use of ‘Palestinians’ as a people. Which has a much later date recorded against it. First used a couple of hundred years ago? It’s like claiming there was a reference to ‘Tottenham’ as an area when someone is claiming there is no reference to Tottenhamers

 

[Grays_1890]

Is taking out twitter ads a new thing for this of situation? Seems odd to invest I adverts for a message you could just as well tweet

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Malaysia still do that?

Did - few years ago when I was in KL

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Appreciate the answer, albeit I hadn't specifically asked you the question!

I know
But it’s a subject that dare I say, I have no “skin in the game in” other than trying to understand more.
Was worries me is I haven’t found anything yet that seem to be balanced
But then that’s life right
I did watch a tv drama called the promise a few years back which was about the British in Israel and a girl and a boy (no bookshop). That was great and got be googling a few things

 

[scaramanga]

I don't know the circumstances that you're referring to with regards detaining 5 year olds but now seems an apt time to remind you all that since the 90's there have been ~90 separate suicide bomb attacks in Israel, with the perpetrators being young, old, male, female.... on behalf of hamas, PIJ or other terrorist cells

Before you point fingers at soldiers detaining children just imagine what it would be like for you, just a normal civilian going about your life, with the constant threat of suicide bombers

27 suicide bombers in 2002 alone

In bus stations, universities, restaurants, markets, clubs

Here's a link because I'm sure you'll deny it's true

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

And each of these suicide bombers have been claimed by hamas or PIJ etc, they've admitted to it, proudly

By the way, one man's "brutally detaining" is another man's "handed over to the Palestinian police".

But we have to get used to hyperbole from the anti-Israel types.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It's a glorious utopia but it will never be. I am most interested in radically accepting the situation we CURRENTLY find ourselves in, and how best to find peaceful resolution going forwards. I acknowledge the deep history, but unless we can use that to the positive, we need to focus on the 'now' IMO. Personally? I think that starts with having two sides equally committed to the concept of peace in the region for all innocent civilians, indeed, people. I personally do not believe that is the current situation (again, I am not ignoring history, I am working from a practical sense of what can be done right NOW in this seismic MOMENT).

There are several dangerous and highly unscrupulous players getting a high degree of agency and traction via this situation. That needs to be stopped.

FWIW, if I had the answers, I likely would not be typing this on my phone outside a cafe sipping a cappuccino; now there's some privilege for you!!!

I think the key word here is peace which means there needs to be a balanced view
But completely and 100% from the outside that looks impossible.

 

[scaramanga]

....., for example, is a true fact) are not accurate (not because of ethnic cleansing but because Jews moved to Israel in large number) so hardly aligns with your ambition to undermine all my points by saying it is down to what sort of picture you want to paint.

Surely a large part of the exodus from elsewhere to Israel is because Jews were (at best) 2nd class citizens in those other countries.

They may not have been forcibly removed, but that doesn't mean those Islamic countries are fluffy rainbow clouds of hugs and handjobs either.

How have I interpreted the fact that Herodotus mentioned 'Palestine' in 450BCE to suit my bias when video guy claimed there were no ancient mentions of the word prior to Roman occupation in 70BCE? There are either mentions of the word pre-Roman times or not. That is a fairly absolute situation, not an opinion, is it not?

As with everything in life, no it isn't that simple.

Palestine is mentioned, but as a region of Syria, not as an independent place.