Sick sick world what is wrong with people

[SpurMeUp]

Its not that complex TBH. Sympathy comes from the same place, it a human nature reaction, well it is for anyone with any real sense of feeling and heart. The idea of having people having their throat slit for being a Jew is horrific, the idea of someone having a bomb dropped on their head for daring to live somewhere that might be close to where someone's hiding is equally horrific. That's nothing to do with living conditions.

I just mean there is an expectation of Israel because of its proximity and its relative wealth. And I agree: Isreal should take more responsibility to build bridges. Yet people in London don't apply that to themselves - like we should help fix things because we are more affluent than others. Probably as we are so far away.

In time Isreal could be a vehicle for its region, providing education/opportunities/a hub for investment/resources/networking/farming ecology and water capture etc. One day there will be a better balance. At the moment it is difficult (but not impossible) to share their successes because there is such hate and bile from some (not all) of the surrounding populations. It is the in-group and out-group narratives that need to be broken for the region to advance. Right now they are going backwards, in a spiral of hate. How do you break that when there are such vicious attacks from both sides?

 

[Grays_1890]

How do you break that when there are such vicious attacks from both sides?

I am not sure obliterating one side off the map and creating the displacement of potentially hundreds of thousand of people is the answer. Seems an effort and sign of superiority for me "leave the country or you will be bombed to high heaven".....yeah lovely and fair that, suppose the "well we did warn them" gives people a false sense of rights.

I look forward to when the displacement inevitably adds to the migrant crisis and those advocating the bombs then cry about having them on our doorstep.

 

[glasgowspur]

It is the case that lives have more value in Western nations. (How is that?) Part of the sympathy for Palestine comes from the immediate contrast in living conditions. There is an onus on Israel to be the better side, and to act more responsibly because it has more resources. You could counter that many commentators based in the West, in their own relative comfort, don't compare themselves to impoverished peoples - because they are so geographically far away. Commentators are quick to say Isreal should do this and that. But there so many impoverished peoples and what are the righteous in the west doing to assist? Posting! Just part of the complexity.

Having suffered horrific injustices over the centuries you would think that Israel would be more understanding and sympathetic.

 

[scaramanga]

The problem with the “hiding behind civilians” rhetoric is that Gaza is a small and incredibly densely populated area. I’m not sure that it’s possible for Hamas to exist in any part of Gaza and not have civilians in close proximity.

True, but they could set up a military base with no civilians in it next to the hospital, rather than in the hospital itself.

 

[monkeybarry]

I'd imagine there was a time sensitive element to taking out those areas. Given that Hamas doesn't have military bases and hides behind civilians, I suspect that intel is fairly short lived and strikes have to take place as soon as it's received.

Again, Hamas are hiding behind civilians, Hamas are bringing those civilians into the war.

Listen to Levy being interviewed by Sangita Myska on LBC (1pm last Sun), then see what your view is.
It is an incredibly telling interview about where Israels consideration lays.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I am not sure obliterating one side off the map and creating the displacement of potentially hundreds of thousand of people is the answer. Seems an effort and sign of superiority for me "leave the country or you will be bombed to high heaven".....yeah lovely and fair that, suppose the "well we did warn them" gives people a false sense of rights.

I look forward to when the displacement inevitably adds to the migrant crisis and those advocating the bombs then cry about having them on our doorstep.

It is hard to feel what the people in Isreal feel now. All I can relate it to is the London Bridge attacks. And only 8 people died compared to over one thousand. Hard to quantify that. Anger, revenge, shame and fears of weakness from Army/politicians are going to be dominant. It wasn't just a violation. It was a pogrom. Which jews have experienced for millennia. Granda 1066, Lisbon 1560 etc thousands of jews killed for simply being different and a minority. I can’t adequately put myself in the position of people in Israel right now. Daxdawsman having spent a lot of time there, no doubt is a little closer to what people are feeling. After the London bridge attacks people had a feeling of enough is enough, we had to do something. Mixed with great anger. Multiply that tenfold from the scale and sheer horror of the attacks (rapes, child hostages, barbaric killing) and retribution is a natural response; but it is wholly forlorn. You kill the liar (Hamas) but not the lie. You murder the hater but not the hate, and so doing sow more seeds of hate.

Unfortunately the wave of popularism didn’t miss Israel, they have had right wing idiots in charge just like the US, UK and other places have. The harm and backwards steps these leaders have caused is hard to quantify. Thankfully, it looks like that phase of idiocy is ending, and maybe there will a greater consensus to build trust and show more compassion towards a longer-term peace. It goes in cycles. People get boarded of one approach and cycle around. Unfortunatly those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[dawaxman]

Having suffered horrific injustices over the centuries you would think that Israel would be more understanding and sympathetic.

*the Israeli government

Jewish people are very sympathetic to displacement and suffering

 

[dawaxman]

I am not sure obliterating one side off the map and creating the displacement of potentially hundreds of thousand of people is the answer. Seems an effort and sign of superiority for me "leave the country or you will be bombed to high heaven".....yeah lovely and fair that, suppose the "well we did warn them" gives people a false sense of rights.

I look forward to when the displacement inevitably adds to the migrant crisis and those advocating the bombs then cry about having them on our doorstep.

I'd like to think the the Jews in the diaspora are sympathetic to refugees as we're all refugees ourselves - 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation - which isn't too far back to not be relevant

 

[dawaxman]

The following does not in any way excuse the current actions of the Israeli government (NOT the Israeli people, nor Israel, nor Jews)

It's interesting that people are so concerned with the Palestinians having a right to remain on 'their' land but not a single person has looked at the plight of Jewish people throughout the following countries where they had communities of peoples for centuries and now have little or in most cases absolutely none, having been forcibly removed through pogroms and the like... there has never been any sympathy for those people:

Yemen
Iran
Morocco
Libya
Iraq
Egypt
Algeria
Tunisia
Syria
Lebanon

And let's not forget the pogroms of Eastern Europe:

Germany
Ukraine
France
Spain
Portugal
Belarus, Poland, Lithuania, Russia
Czech Republic

Literally millions of Jews subjected to violence and massacres resulting in innocent civilians being made to leave their homes

As stated at the beginning, this is not to excuse what the Israeli government is doing right now... its just an interesting dichotomy

Like, for example, where people are posting pro- Palestine messages or attending pro- Palestine rallies but not empathising with the murdered/ kidnapped Israeli civilians or empathising with the impacted relatives all around the world

There's only 15m Jews on the planet, so, with 3 or 4 degrees of separation at most, we're all affected by these events. And on top of that, there's a very clear antisemitic reverberation happening all around the world that impacts us all too...

 

[scaramanga]

Listen to Levy being interviewed by Sangita Myska on LBC (1pm last Sun), then see what your view is.
It is an incredibly telling interview about where Israels consideration lays.

I know where Israel's consideration lays.

The destruction of Hamas is an absolute priority. That is what matters and they cannot fail in that aim.

They will reduce civilian casualties as much as possible but without allowing it to endanger their main objective. The blame for any civilian casualties though, lies with Hamas and their cowardly use of their own population as human shields.

 

[monkeybarry]

I know where Israel's consideration lays.

The destruction of Hamas is an absolute priority. That is what matters and they cannot fail in that aim.

They will reduce civilian casualties as much as possible but without allowing it to endanger their main objective. The blame for any civilian casualties though, lies with Hamas and their cowardly use of their own population as human shields.

Indeed. Which is why Israel feel justified in committing war crimes.
It is certainly actions that are contrary to the statement,
"Israel are at least giving people the chance to evacuate" (Scaramanga, p.70).

 

[Grays_1890]

I know where Israel's consideration lays.

The destruction of Hamas is an absolute priority. That is what matters and they cannot fail in that aim.

They will reduce civilian casualties as much as possible but without allowing it to endanger their main objective. The blame for any civilian casualties though, lies with Hamas and their cowardly use of their own population as human shields.

The massive danger is whilst they may wipe out Hamas in this form, the subsequent loss of innocent lives will lead to a breeding ground for more angry recruits. Many of the young will see the killing and displacement and grow sympathy for the cause where they wouldn't have before. Nothing like someone losing their parents to a bombing to mess their heads and change their outlook forever

Nothing good comes of this IMO

 

[glasgowspur]

*the Israeli government

Jewish people are very sympathetic to displacement and suffering

Apologies, I tried to be sensitive in my wording and fudged up.

 

[scaramanga]

Indeed. Which is why Israel feel justified in committing war crimes.
It is certainly actions that are contrary to the statement,
"Israel are at least giving people the chance to evacuate" (Scaramanga, p.70).

They have - have you not been reading the news?

 

[scaramanga]

The massive danger is whilst they may wipe out Hamas in this form, the subsequent loss of innocent lives will lead to a breading ground for more angry recruits. Many of the young will see the killing and displacement and grow sympathy for the cause where they wouldn't have before. Nothing like someone losing their parents to a bombing to mess their heads and change their outlook forever

Nothing good comes of this IMO

Quite possibly. As long as we don't let the bed wetters in international govts get in the way, I back Israel to be able to kill terrorists faster than they can recruit/train them.

 

[dawaxman]

Isn't wiping out hamas the entire world's problem and all nations are complicit in the death of the Palestinian civilians by not getting involved directly... all well and good saying that they support Israel, but if they truly care about the Palestinian civilians, shouldn't they offer troops of their own to go in to gaza and secure hamas themselves?

How would you feel if the UK, for example, responded on behalf of Israel with their own attack on gaza?

Would we be on Israel's "side" and condemning the UK army?

I think the UK and the US etc etc are allowing Israel to take the political slack for offing the terrorists....

 

[dawaxman]

Just want to call something out here which isn't intentional and is most definitely subconscious, and I did address it above but its worth it's own post to stress the point

Israel and Jews are NOT one thing

But non-Jewish people tend to see the actions of Israel and bundle all Jewish people, globally in their blaming of the situation

To confuse this slightly though, almost all Jewish people DO have an affinity to Israel, due to family ties or friends or because it's the only place on earth that is a Jewish nation (vs 50 Islamic states; 21 Christian states; 4 Hindu states and 3 Buddhist states)

Almost all of us feel personally impacted when something bad happens to Israel and sadly all too often we are on the receiving end of antisemitism as a result of it

According to latest figures, antisemitic incidents in the UK are up by over 400% since last weekend... and that's from a non-insignificant amount before that (antisemitism has been on the rise for the last 20+ years)

But Jews are NOT Israel

That is why the Chelsea fc statement recently was SO much better than Tottenham's. Which is sad for me and ironic given that their fans are amongst the most antisemitic fan base in the country

Here's the tweet:

https://x.com/ChelseaFC/status/1712862081655971994?t=B3y_aDpaktZIQrIc73VmYA&s=09

And here is the Spurs tweet:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712477102317125710

 

[Grays_1890]

Just want to call something out here which isn't intentional and is most definitely subconscious, and I did address it above but its worth it's own post to stress the point

Israel and Jews are NOT one thing

But non-Jewish people tend to see the actions of Israel and bundle all Jewish people, globally in their blaming of the situation

To confuse this slightly though, almost all Jewish people DO have an affinity to Israel, due to family ties or friends or because it's the only place on earth that is a Jewish nation (vs 50 Islamic states; 21 Christian states; 4 Hindu states and 3 Buddhist states)

Almost all of us feel personally impacted when something bad happens to Israel and sadly all too often we are on the receiving end of antisemitism as a result of it

According to latest figures, antisemitic incidents in the UK are up by over 400% since last weekend... and that's from a non-insignificant amount before that (antisemitism has been on the rise for the last 20+ years)

But Jews are NOT Israel

That is why the Chelsea fc statement recently was SO much better than Tottenham's. Which is sad for me and ironic given that their fans are amongst the most antisemitic fan base in the country

Here's the tweet:

https://x.com/ChelseaFC/status/1712862081655971994?t=B3y_aDpaktZIQrIc73VmYA&s=09

And here is the Spurs tweet:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712477102317125710

The fact they have anti semitic fans was likely the reason they emphasised the point.

The fact we have a large Jewish support base, I would say that it was more safety and consideration of events taking place in London that influenced the Spurs statement. The statement would have passed through a number of Jewish execs before being released so I'm willing to go with the idea it was done with utmost best intentions given their skin in the game

Take a look at Twitter tonight, swarms of Spurs fans absolutely bricking the idea of going to Fulham game and that's without the added pressure of a statement from the club.

 

[dawaxman]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cyc4Py0MkEq/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

The debate on here demonstrates the complexity of the situation, I'm sure all feel sympathy for the millions living in this terror and can see the historic origins of problems. I'm sick of the way it's always "the people" (Jews/Arabs/Muslims/etc) who get labelled in these circumstances when it's small groups of powerful "leaders" who create the horror. We all want to live in peace with each other.