Rotation - some facts and figures

[chancer]

Someone in the last day or two made a great post about how we were changing formations even when we were winning...was an excellent post but I can't find it now. Anyone remember it or is the author reading here?

 

[elyid]

Really interesting article - thanks for posting!

Crazy that 6 of our players (not including Friedel) have played more mins than any Utd player.
I posted in another thread that Modric + Ade look like they are just waiting for summer, but maybe it's simply because they are knackered.

 

[elltrev]

I think the point trying to be made is that had we those players in the squad we would have rotated more, meaning everyone is fresher now - so we can really push for the top. Top 3, not top 4.

Logically I agree, but as you point out - its just not Redknapps way to manage. He seems to prefer a first 11 and a second 11 and the second 11 players only get in in an emergency.

But the thing is, can you imagine if Harry had rested Bale for Pienaar and we'd lost? Or brought in Bassong for Kaboul and lost? Or brought in Corluka after 18 games on the bench, and he'd made a mistake that led to a winning goal? People would be up in arms, chastising him for changing a 'winning formula'.

Again, I think people are clutching at straws in trying to say what's gone wrong - 'Arry's tinkering too much, he's not rotating enough etc. When actually those things aren't the issue.

 

[DHSF]

Our squad is not overatted imo....we pathetically loaned out our cover.

Corluka, Pienaar, Bassong could have helped with our injuries after new year. We also have young players to come in next season. The ONLY thing we needed to do at christmas, like the 5 windows before, was to sign a top striker.

Bassong is hardly pulling up any trees, Corluka would have been useful and Pienaar everyone didnt rate.

The way I view it it is actually a bit brick bar the 12 -14 players.

This is my opinion and to be perfectly honest I think my opinion is 100% correct.

 

[elltrev]

Someone in the last day or two made a great post about how we were changing formations even when we were winning...was an excellent post but I can't find it now. Anyone remember it or is the author reading here?

It's the 'False Memories' one.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

http://inanuttshell1.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/choking-****erels-have-run-out-of.html

Choking ****erels have run out of breath
by TOM ALLNUTT | APRIL 10, 2012
You may not know about geese.*

You may not know that when geese migrate they fly in a 'V' formation*so each goose's flapping creates an uplift for the geese*behind.

The*only goose*who has to do it all*off his own back*is the poor old*sod at the front.*This goose*gets absolutely no flapping perks.

But*if you didn't know about the flap-effect, you*may also not have*known that when the goose*at the front*gets tired*he drops back and another goose takes over.

Tricks like these enable geese to fly 72% further than if they each flew individually.

Tottenham Hotspur could learn a lot from geese.

Nine points from nine league*games and*a*13 point*lead over Arsenal squandered, Tottenham's Champions League*train hasn't just gone off the rails, it's toppled over, turned*upside-down and tied itself in a knot.

Various*explanations have been put forward*including Redknapp's*links to England, Redknapp's tactics,*an unforgiving fixture list, the*relentless form*of*Arsenal, the stuttering form of key players, bad luck, the absence of Aaron Lennon, the*positioning of Gareth Bale and*Benoit-Assou Ekotto's increasingly ill-disciplined hair cut.

But whilst you*could be forgiven for thinking this list exhaustive, only one theory can*be backed up by evidence.*Not psychological speculation*but hard, indisputable facts. And it's not on that list.

In the past two seasons Tottenham's win percentage in their first 19 games has been almost double that of their second 19.

More Tottenham players have played over 25 games this season*than at Manchester United, Emirates Marketing Project and Arsenal put together.

Five Tottenham players*(Friedel, Assou-Ekotto, Bale, Walker and Modric)*make up*45% of the entire squad's minutes on the pitch*in the league this season.

Tottenham are quite simply,*knackered.

The lure of maintaining a title challenge*in January persuaded Redknapp to*turn to the*same players again and again and*again. And in the heat of the fight*his*most trusted troops*have burned out.

Riding high in January, shot down in May.

If you've been locked in a dark room in recent weeks you may have missed*Sir Alex say United are at their best at this time of the season. And to be fair to him,*they*have been bloody brilliant.

11*wins in 12, 8 victories in a row, at the business end of the season United know*how to close*a deal.

But why do they always peak just when the teams around them fall by the wayside?

Midfielders do more running than anyone else on*a football*pitch*and Ferguson knows that to keep his engine room running til May, rotation from the outset*is paramount.

Ferguson selected ten different midfield players this season. Tottenham used seven. Not one of United's midfielders has played more than 2,000 minutes. Michael Carrick is the most*used with 1,960. Three of Tottenham's midfielders (Parker, Modric and Bale) have played more than 2,000 minutes with Bale and Modric over 5,000 between them.

Players thrive on form and confidence but Ferguson priorities rest over rhythm.*Even in the early months of the season, the United manager*rotates his regular starters to ensure they can go the*distance.

Wayne Rooney has never played 90 minutes more than seven times in a row this season and only once more than five times in a row.

In February, having not scored for six games Rooney suddenly burst into form scoring 4 goals in 2.*The next game*Ferguson rested him.

By contrast Tottenham's*first choice forward,*Emmanuel Adebayor, has played 12*full matches in a row from October to January and upon joining played 17 matches in succession where he played 80 minutes or more.

Gareth Bale has played 15 full matches on the bounce*and 29 full matches out of 32.

Key players make the difference but Ferguson resists the temptation to depend on a small*circle of*stars.

United's top five most used players this season*(de Gea, Evra, Rooney, Evans and Ferdinand) have played 2,563 minutes less than Tottenham's top five (Friedel, Assou-Ekotto, Bale, Walker and Modric).

That means United's five went into last weekend's matches having played the*equivalent of*28*matches*fewer than Tottenham's this season. That's almost six matches*fewer*per player.

This isn't the odd game here and there. This is a well-thought out, well-rehearsed strategy. This is the difference between champions and challengers.

Redknapp cannot shoulder too much of the blame though.

He would no doubt argue that without the fluency and rhythm of a consistent line-up Spurs would never have*reached their*January*heights*in the first place.

And who could blame him for photocopying the same team sheet week in week out whilst they were being lauded as the*most attractive*team in the league, the new Arsenal, title challengers.

It would have taken a brave man to rotate those players. Only Ferguson delights in changing a winning team.

Others might argue United have*a squad that allows them to draw upon their bench more readily than their rivals. But are the likes of Gallas and*Bassong so*less dependable*than*Evans and Smalling?*Sandro and Kranjcar than Jones and Park? Hernandez and Owen than Saha and Defoe?

The difference is trust. By resting players when they're in form Ferguson injects his replacements with confidence rather than turning to them as a last resort.

Ferguson doesn't believe in*a best eleven, he believes in a squad*able to fill*in when others*are in need, he believes in the flap-effect.

Redknapp meanwhile*wanted the title*but trusted*only a*few*individuals to deliver it.*He smelt*the opportunity for glory, gambled everything to*grab*it*and lost. Only time will tell if he blew the*lot.

<><><><><><><><>
Tottenham's most used players (minutes played)

>>>>>>>>>

Friedel
2880
BAE 2802
Bale 2766
Walker 2729
Modric 2674
Kaboul 2601
Adebayor 2422
Van der Vaart 1892
King 1690
Saha 1627
Lennon 1090
Defoe 1087
Sandro 1011
Gallas 876
Livermore 677
Kranjcar 640
Dawson 549
Pavyluchenko 133
Nelsen 106
Rose 67
Giovanni 41
<><><><><><><><>
Manchester United's most used players (minutes played)

>>>>>>>>>

Evra
2694
Rooney 2346
de Gea 2160
Evans 2063
Ferdinand 2025
Carrick 1960
Nani 1867
Welbeck 1766
Jones 1760
Valencia 1656
Hernandez 1328
Young 1281
Giggs 1209
Smalling 1116
Park 875
Scholes 767
Rafael 728
Lindergaard 720
Berbatov 491
Cleverley 370
Fabio 339
Pogba 71

The key point here is, are these stats for all competitions?

 

[totman]

Agreed. And I keep on seeing people complain about loaning out Corluka, Bassong and Piennar, as if they would have made any difference to our current situation.

So you dont think having quality options helps?

Our loss of form is directly connected to players losing form, or being injured. Corluka would have given us some options on the right when Lennon was out. We could have played Walker in front of him for example, just to give us width.

Pienaar is a utility player who can do a job wide or central. No need to use VDV in CM, or Niko RW.

I agree that Nelsen has been superb, and I applaud his contribution. But Bassong is head and shoulders above him, and Id have had him on against Norwich all day long over Nelsen.

Im not saying we would be top of the league, but to dismiss getting rid of players who give you a strong depth of squad, as meaningless is bizarre.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

And my point is - their form has dropped substantially since then and can no longer perform to the previous standards you keep referring to.

Whether it's down to age, fitness, confidence, etc. - they have been abysmal this season and we cannot play them on the premise they were once decent, etc.

What about on the premise that if they had regular minutes, a place in the team and their managers confidence they would improve their form?

There is precedence for each of them to play to a good level.

 

[totman]

Bassong is hardly pulling up any trees, Corluka would have been useful and Pienaar everyone didnt rate.

The way I view it it is actually a bit brick bar the 12 -14 players.

This is my opinion and to be perfectly honest I think my opinion is 100% correct.

Well this is GG so your in the right place!

Our squad is far from sh#t mate. I still maintain its the 3rd best squad in the PL.

We are faltering, and stumbling, but its still the same (apart from the players we got rid of in Jan) that had us drooling for 5 months

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

But the thing is, can you imagine if Harry had rested Bale for Pienaar and we'd lost? Or brought in Bassong for Kaboul and lost? Or brought in Corluka after 18 games on the bench, and he'd made a mistake that led to a winning goal? People would be up in arms, chastising him for changing a 'winning formula'.

Again, I think people are clutching at straws in trying to say what's gone wrong - 'Arry's tinkering too much, he's not rotating enough etc. When actually those things aren't the issue.

Its about getting it right of course. Look at the season as it panned out, Harry has been chastised for plenty anyway - its going to happen regardless.

Its a simple premise, would we be better off or not had we kept those players? Would we have more options or not? Could we cover injury better or not?

 

[P.D.]

The point is that if we had rotated more at the right times then the squad would be fresher and the back up players would have at least got some minutes. When they come in now they are clearly not fully fit so they cant be utilised effectively, they also know they are clearly 2nd choice and therefore motivation will be lacking as these arent 18yr olds here but fully fledged internationals.

I mena Niki, Charlie etc could easily have started another 5/6 games each if used correctly and I doubt it would have materially affected our points total.

 

[totman]

Woah there tiger!

Are we now saying Harry didnt tinker enough?

 

[elltrev]

Its about getting it right of course. Look at the season as it panned out, Harry has been chastised for plenty anyway - its going to happen regardless.

Its a simple premise, would we be better off or not had we kept those players? Would we have more options or not? Could we cover injury better or not?

Bassong - No. I always really liked him, and thought he was going to be Ledley's heir after he played so well in the 09-10. But he's looked increasingly poor since then, and I think a loan move to give him regular football was a good idea. We brought In Nelsen to replace him, who has been better IMO.

Corluka - Of course, ideally, I would prefer to have him as backup than no-one (/Kaboul). But I think he wanted regular football, and sometimes shipping out an unhappy player can be best for the team. And I think Corluka wouldn't have played if he was still here, and even if he had played the odd game, it wouldn't have made any difference to our position now.

Pienaar - For me, Niko and Pienaar are similar in that they can both play in Bale or VDV's positions, and do an (albeit uncomfortable) job in Lennon's. Pienaar never hit his form with us, and I think he was unhappy / lacking confidence. Again, getting him regular football was the right thing to do here, and he wouldn't have been getting any with us given that Niko has barely been playing.

So no, I don't think we'd be particularly better off if we'd kept those players. As you said, Harry's style seems to be not to rotate much. I think that criticising that is a valid point, but the loaning out of those three isn't very relevant.

 

[DHSF]

Well this is GG so your in the right place!

Our squad is far from sh#t mate. I still maintain its the 3rd best squad in the PL.

We are faltering, and stumbling, but its still the same (apart from the players we got rid of in Jan) that had us drooling for 5 months

I was bein facetious about the 100% correct. Maybe 99%.

I dont think its brick but I think it is overrated. By that I mean you take out two or three players from our team and we falter. Take out Lennon and we look imbalanced, same goes for taking out Bale and no width. Take out Ade and we lack potency or any cohesion up front. Take out Parker and we dont have much bite. Take out a Defender and we lack solidity. Take out BAE and we have no one at left back, same goes for right back.

I think it is seriously overrated, it lacks adequate back up in key positions but above all it lacks adequate back up to key players.

The five months because our squad was fresh and didnt have too many injuries. Our team now is SO knackered physically and mentally and I guess the season has caught up on them. It was essential to get in two or three players to give us that extra momentum but we didnt. Noocastle did and theyre reaping the benefits.

 

[ArcspacE]

How come you don't apply that logic to potential transfer targets?

Which one are you referring to in particlar?

 

[ArcspacE]

What about on the premise that if they had regular minutes, a place in the team and their managers confidence they would improve their form?

There is precedence for each of them to play to a good level.

Krunchie got regular minutes recently, even started a few games and looked very poor

Corluka was leaking water like a seive way before he was dropped for Alan bloody Hutton and then Walker.

Both players regressed over a period of time

 

[totman]

I was bein facetious about the 100% correct. Maybe 99%.

I dont think its brick but I think it is overrated. By that I mean you take out two or three players from our team and we falter. Take out Lennon and we look imbalanced, same goes for taking out Bale and no width. Take out Ade and we lack potency or any cohesion up front. Take out Parker and we dont have much bite. Take out a Defender and we lack solidity. Take out BAE and we have no one at left back, same goes for right back.

I think it is seriously overrated, it lacks adequate back up in key positions but above all it lacks adequate back up to key players.

The five months because our squad was fresh and didnt have too many injuries. Our team now is SO knackered physically and mentally and I guess the season has caught up on them. It was essential to get in two or three players to give us that extra momentum but we didnt. Noocastle did and theyre reaping the benefits.

Take out RVP
Take out Cisse
Even Barca wouldnt be the same without Messi.

Thats what top players bring to a team..

 

[AdamB]

Ofcourse we do and this comes back to how overrated our squad is. If we had a good squad full of players who can drop in to replace another then we wouldnt be as knackered. This isnt even a physicaly thing but mentally also.

WE NEED REINFORCEMENTS IN THE SUMMER. Our squad needs overhauling in certain places parituclarly the bench and defence and strikeforce.

Disagree that the squad is over-rated. Harry just needs to apply some common sense. For example:
- Charlie should never have been allowed to go on loan in Jan as its put a massive burden on Walker
- Rather than keeping GDS and Krancjar, neither of whom Harry seems to have faith in, we should have got rid of them for whatever price and brought in a wide man who could take some of the workload off Bale and Lennon
- Rose is fit and motivated and proved at the end of last season that he's a more than adequate LB. When has Benny had to play in pretty much every competition without a decent break?

 

[P.D.]

Krunchie got regular minutes recently, even started a few games and looked very poor

Corluka was leaking water like a seive way before he was dropped for Alan bloody Hutton and then Walker.

Both players regressed over a period of time

Perhaps they both lost form as they weren't getting regular game time. Proper rotation would have kept them fit and sharp.

 

[ArcspacE]

Corluka lost time due to his poor form though - i.e. how was a regular for us initially.

Krunchie came in as a squad player and was always going to be that unless we had 4 injuries/suspensions in midfield.