Roberto De Zerbi *OFFICIAL*

[thfcsteff]

The scale of the change that needs to happen at the club is the sole reason. It’s not a June/July in a World Cup year fix with an eye on the first game. There is a massive cultural reset going on and this period is about setting the foundations for what comes over the next 5 years. I’d say that takes 18 months at least to get properly to where we want to be.

Agreed!

I seriously doubt Spurs fans have the backbone for it though.

No point going there. Speak with the ones who have?!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

There has been so much change at the club in the last 6 months. Anyone expecting us to look anything special against a settled and comfortable Brentford team on day one was likely just riding the optimism of a new season and nothing more.

There was no logic to suggest we’d go there and look like the team we want to be. We’ve had an extremely disrupted pre-season, more about avoiding injuries than anything. Combined with the World Cup, a whole lot of ins and outs, a manager who is effectively brand new (at least in terms of the style he wants to now bed in) and there’s still clearly a lot more work to do on the squad. I’d be surprised if we are in the top half before November/December, but after that I would expect us to start really picking up the points.

You even liked the post where I basically predicted what’s happening (let’s hope the transfers are to follow quickly)



As ever, our fan base has the collective temperament of a 5 year old so once again my biggest fears are that the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and all the idiots with a YouTube following ensure we do the same thing to this manager that we usually do.

So enjoy the ride you're on and ignore the one you're not on...I get it, we've all been on similar rides with previous managers...but hopefully (as the years creep into our lives) we find the serenity to accept that some of the football circus is simply not worth our valuable time and energy. I think what you've predicted is very reasonable with regards to our season. I have a tendency to be over-optimistic and 'in the moment of emotions' with football, so was humbled a bit by yesterday. A quick spot of homework for the pod we just did offered me both balance and the reality that I know the practical stuff and should probably engage it a bit more...naysayers and doom merchants? Yeah. No. I don't watch any of the youtube crap or read X or that sort of rubbish.
Thankfully, all I'm seeing here is disappointment and some bewilderment as to how that result happened, which seems wholly appropriate. Anyway, here's to the season COYS

 

[monkeybarry]

I have serious question on his judgment from what I've seen this week.

....he joined Spurs.... wasn't that a serious enough question?!

 

[Benny_Lad]

@Robspur12 didn't say RDZ was 'clueless' in any interpretation. He posited a concern, but to my eye actually illustrated a great sense of belief in the manager.



Mate...I said the same on the newest pod re: conditioning and fitness. And I think this is exactly what RDZ meant when he said 'not ready'...I added some further context for my view as well. There is a whole new approach to fitness and conditioning going on which is tailored to specific players, that has to be a factor.

Do you think its right that an elite club doesn't have a competitive team physically ready for the first game(s) of the season?

FWIW, I haven't expected much from the first month or two as it's plainly obvious we are 'late'.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Do you think its right that an elite club doesn't have a competitive team physically ready for the first game(s) of the season?

Its not a dig at RDZ, but this is where I land in general. No miracles expects, but given the sheer level of investment over the last 3/4 years I don't think its good enough as a club. Now to caveat that we are committing to a plan with RDZ which comes with development etc, so growing pains are to be expected. But in isolation, Saturday was horrific

 

[DeanoAustin]

There has been so much change at the club in the last 6 months. Anyone expecting us to look anything special against a settled and comfortable Brentford team on day one was likely just riding the optimism of a new season and nothing more.

There was no logic to suggest we’d go there and look like the team we want to be. We’ve had an extremely disrupted pre-season, more about avoiding injuries than anything. Combined with the World Cup, a whole lot of ins and outs, a manager who is effectively brand new (at least in terms of the style he wants to now bed in) and there’s still clearly a lot more work to do on the squad. I’d be surprised if we are in the top half before November/December, but after that I would expect us to start really picking up the points.

You even liked the post where I basically predicted what’s happening (let’s hope the transfers are to follow quickly)



As ever, our fan base has the collective temperament of a 5 year old so once again my biggest fears are that the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and all the idiots with a YouTube following ensure we do the same thing to this manager that we usually do.

This is a really good post.

Said it elsewhere but too much stock is put in individual results these days which I guess is a by-product of the level of media coverage and the new media that thrives on knee jerk reactions. I was very disappointed with Saturday and, still bearing the scars of last season, felt a little like "will this brick league form ever end?".

However, we have a very good manager, the board have backed him in a way I've not seen before, we have a much better squad. Things will get better, it'll just take time.

My lad has joined a new team this year where they've gutted the squad from last season and the new squad are still settling. I've said to him, "don't worry too much about results early on, you will probably start slow but you will improve as the season goes on". Dunno why I'd expect anything different from Spurs. It's light years away in terms of scale but the same principle applies. Looking at the situation objectively, everything points to us improving - it'll just take time.

 

[metalgear]

Saudi Sportswashing Machine actually looks better with their direct lightning attacks and i believe this is where we will test dezerbiball's weak point - when confronted with a deep lying defence and leaving space behind.

hopefully vdv and porro are going to be ready

 

[parklane1]

This is a really good post.

Said it elsewhere but too much stock is put in individual results these days which I guess is a by-product of the level of media coverage and the new media that thrives on knee jerk reactions. I was very disappointed with Saturday and, still bearing the scars of last season, felt a little like "will this brick league form ever end?".

However, we have a very good manager, the board have backed him in a way I've not seen before, we have a much better squad. Things will get better, it'll just take time.

My lad has joined a new team this year where they've gutted the squad from last season and the new squad are still settling. I've said to him, "don't worry too much about results early on, you will probably start slow but you will improve as the season goes on". Dunno why I'd expect anything different from Spurs. It's light years away in terms of scale but the same principle applies. Looking at the situation objectively, everything points to us improving - it'll just take time.

Well said, great post mate.

 

[Benny_Lad]

This is a really good post.

Said it elsewhere but too much stock is put in individual results these days which I guess is a by-product of the level of media coverage and the new media that thrives on knee jerk reactions. I was very disappointed with Saturday and, still bearing the scars of last season, felt a little like "will this brick league form ever end?".

However, we have a very good manager, the board have backed him in a way I've not seen before, we have a much better squad. Things will get better, it'll just take time.

My lad has joined a new team this year where they've gutted the squad from last season and the new squad are still settling. I've said to him, "don't worry too much about results early on, you will probably start slow but you will improve as the season goes on". Dunno why I'd expect anything different from Spurs. It's light years away in terms of scale but the same principle applies. Looking at the situation objectively, everything points to us improving - it'll just take time.

I don't disagree with anything you've said on the long term strategy and development being more important than short term results. And actually a hard fought loss would represent that we are short of some players and have not got our playing style up to speed, that's totally acceptable.

But a 3-0 loss with a 4xg vs 0.4xg with next to no effort shouldn't mean we cant apply some critical thinking to where things are still falling short. As I said - how can it be ok to arrive at first league game completely unprepared physically regardless of who is on the pitch and the playing style.

I pointed out in the Hoffenheim thread when the team was announced that we would be going into the season totally undercooked, it was pretty obvious. So why have the club (not RDZ) let it happen?

 

[DeanoAustin]

I don't disagree with anything you've said on the long term strategy and development being more important than short term results. And actually a hard fought loss would represent that we are short of some players and have not got our playing style up to speed, that's totally acceptable.

But a 3-0 loss with a 4xg vs 0.4xg with next to no effort shouldn't mean we cant apply some critical thinking to where things are still falling short. As I said - how can it be ok to arrive at first league game completely unprepared physically regardless of who is on the pitch and the playing style.

I pointed out in the Hoffenheim thread when the team was announced that we would be going into the season totally undercooked, it was pretty obvious. So why have the club (not RDZ) let it happen?

I think questions are fair and I do wonder how we looked so ill-prepared so I'm not really talking about that sort of criticism. It's the bedwetting and drawing conclusions from Saturday that I'm more talking about of which there hasn't been much on here admittedly. The BBC had a piece this morning on "WINNERS" and "LOSERS" (the capital letters are theirs) from the weekend and the first "LOSERS" were Man U and us which just plays into the reactionary knee jerk nonsense. I know it's how the media works now but I hate it and would have expected better of the BBC until a couple of years ago.

I'd expect questions and discussion of the kind you've mentioned on here - that's fair. I can't really get on board with drawing conclusions or looking for a spacegoat or two. It's one game.

 

[Ace Face]

Do you think its right that an elite club doesn't have a competitive team physically ready for the first game(s) of the season?

FWIW, I haven't expected much from the first month or two as it's plainly obvious we are 'late'.

Considering we only had 3-4 starters playing and our 5th choice captain while we appear to be tenderly bringing the majority of our best players back, I think there’s a valid argument be made on RDZ’s behalf here.

Many of our players were at a ludicrously long WC and we are still suffering from the lengthy injuries to many of our skill-position players while we integrate a lot of new players into the team.

In hindsight it was to be expected but my rose-tinted glasses prevented me from seeing all of that. But the result was a good dose of reality for all of us.

 

[Muttley]

When you think about the physical preparedness of the squad for the Saturday game, there are 2 things that come to mind. The first is the world cup impact of players being away. The second is of course the ability to get to peak fitness based on recent injury records.

When you put that all together you see a gulf between Brentford who had just 3 at the WC and currently only have 2 injuries compared to us. I won't even list ours. We all know the score with that one.

I guess the only anomaly is the contingent of our squad that have had no injuries and weren't at the WC, or even had early exits. I don't really recall some of ours looking much fresher and fitter than others.

What is clear is that we need to get them through some gears now to be at the levels we saw Brentford at.

 

[thfcsteff]

Do you think its right that an elite club doesn't have a competitive team physically ready for the first game(s) of the season?

FWIW, I haven't expected much from the first month or two as it's plainly obvious we are 'late'.

It's not about being 'right' it's about where we are (mate LOL)...I think part of the issue has been the realisation that as a club we absolutely do not rehab our players properly (or have not until now). I suspect this summer has seen a large shift in that approach. Which is why we started the game with what most of us would charitably call a Carabao side. I think we're engaging in some early 'pain' with regards to being able to pick first choices versus making sure they don't get mangled by Xmas, and I am hopeful that this means come the last third of the season, we are not hammered by the same injury blight we have had before.

One thing too on pre-seasons. I know everyone does them, and I know they will continue in places far away, but if ever there was a pre-season to do in the US this might well have been it (if distance was necessary) otherwise the planning to go to Oz in a World Cup year does seem a little 'off'. It absolutely should not be an excuse, granted, but it is most definitely a contributing reason.

Honestly, I think the lessons learnt will be massive. Just to add, Man Utd and Vila supporters are doubtless asking exactly the same questions.

 

[thfcsteff]

I don't disagree with anything you've said on the long term strategy and development being more important than short term results. And actually a hard fought loss would represent that we are short of some players and have not got our playing style up to speed, that's totally acceptable.

But a 3-0 loss with a 4xg vs 0.4xg with next to no effort shouldn't mean we cant apply some critical thinking to where things are still falling short. As I said - how can it be ok to arrive at first league game completely unprepared physically regardless of who is on the pitch and the playing style.

I pointed out in the Hoffenheim thread when the team was announced that we would be going into the season totally undercooked, it was pretty obvious. So why have the club (not RDZ) let it happen?

I am not sure anyone has let it happen TBH mate.

Mitigation for Sat would certainly have to include no Porro, no VDV, no Kudus. I think that's fair.
RDZ didn't seem to feel Fernandes was ready for a full 90, and it is clear he makes a huge difference.
The front three are absolutely not the front three he wants to settle with, as we can see with Savinho and Marmoush.

I think the changes in conditioning/fitness approach is also going to take time, as well as keep players off the pitch so as they can really re-energise/recuperate properly.

My big personal takes re:critical thinking from the weekend debacle...

1) Lucas does not really fit RDZ's system, at the very least he cannot play in matches like this against teams like Brentford, Arsenal, etc

2) We cannot trust a right-hand side that positonally inexperienced in these sorts of games.

3) Gallagher is not a 10 and needs to be a squad player not a first-eleven starter

4) We really could do with another player who profiles like Fernandes in our squad, as Tonali is so much better with that type of player in pivot.

5) It is ridiculous to have to play Richarlison in those sorts of games because they only amplify everything he cannot do (he is a finisher who works fine when we have the ball and are not having to go long). For that reason I'd like to see a Gakpo for alternative, and would even be OK with a Mateta at this point. Otherwise we simply have to hope Solanke finds either his form or his feet or his fitness or all of those!!!!!

6) Robertson is very good, and we will not be launching attacks at speed with him starting as he has lost that yard of initial pace.

I found the pedestrian nature of performance was largely dictated by the midfield, and Bergvall was the main driver of that. He was 'off' all day. I remain suspicious his heart is fully with us or the RDZ plan.

Interested in your thoughts...

 

[Raziel]

I am not sure anyone has let it happen TBH mate.

Mitigation for Sat would certainly have to include no Porro, no VDV, no Kudus. I think that's fair.
RDZ didn't seem to feel Fernandes was ready for a full 90, and it is clear he makes a huge difference.
The front three are absolutely not the front three he wants to settle with, as we can see with Savinho and Marmoush.

I think the changes in conditioning/fitness approach is also going to take time, as well as keep players off the pitch so as they can really re-energise/recuperate properly.

My big personal takes re:critical thinking from the weekend debacle...

1) Lucas does not really fit RDZ's system, at the very least he cannot play in matches like this against teams like Brentford, Arsenal, etc

2) We cannot trust a right-hand side that positonally inexperienced in these sorts of games.

3) Gallagher is not a 10 and needs to be a squad player not a first-eleven starter

4) We really could do with another player who profiles like Fernandes in our squad, as Tonali is so much better with that type of player in pivot.

5) It is ridiculous to have to play Richarlison in those sorts of games because they only amplify everything he cannot do (he is a finisher who works fine when we have the ball and are not having to go long). For that reason I'd like to see a Gakpo for alternative, and would even be OK with a Mateta at this point. Otherwise we simply have to hope Solanke finds either his form or his feet or his fitness or all of those!!!!!

6) Robertson is very good, and we will not be launching attacks at speed with him starting as he has lost that yard of initial pace.

I found the pedestrian nature of performance was largely dictated by the midfield, and Bergvall was the main driver of that. He was 'off' all day. I remain suspicious his heart is fully with us or the RDZ plan.

Interested in your thoughts...

For me, on top of your points, fitness at this level matters (for all the reasons discussed, we aren't there yet)

1. Lucas talent is with the ball, he's not the one to get you the possession. Hard to judge a player who's job is to progress the ball when no one in front of him is moving correctly (Moore & Richi were especially poor here). I think re your off day, hard to tell, could also be, he just was trying too hard to impress and trying things that ended up being too much of a risk.

2. Not for the first time, the weakness on the right, nullified the left, as in preseason, teams are comfortable doubling up on Tel/Robertson as no real threat from RW. Porro/Savinho or Porro/Kudus solves this, and we will probably see an improvement on left as well as result

3. Gallagher is an off the ball player, personally think he's not good enough but if you use him, you need Fernandes/Tonali behind him, and good players wide. I could see a world where he works with Marmoush, making runs off each other or just Gallagher arriving late

4. Hard to find another Fernandes, think Bentancur will have to do, a little disappointed for 14M we didn't have Palhinha as a fighting option (he would have suited the game against Brentford).

5. Richi requires we are going to get the ball into the box area (without him in buildup), and also have other targets in the box (so he's not just outnumbered).

6. Robertson for me remains the option against teams sitting back, but saw some of his reading of the game that bodes well.

However, my perspective on this game remains

- We may never see this lineup again for Spurs
- Fitness, tactics and player cohesion will also improve over time

Hard to get wound up when the lineup could be (in a week or two)
- Kinsky, Udogie, VDV, JVH, Porro, Fernandes, Tonali, Maddison, Savinho, Marmoush, Kudus (3 starters from Brentford game)

 

[thfcsteff]

For me, on top of your points, fitness at this level matters (for all the reasons discussed, we aren't there yet)

1. Lucas talent is with the ball, he's not the one to get you the possession. Hard to judge a player who's job is to progress the ball when no one in front of him is moving correctly (Moore & Richi were especially poor here). I think re your off day, hard to tell, could also be, he just was trying too hard to impress and trying things that ended up being too much of a risk.

I think that is also a distinct possibility, agreed.

4. Hard to find another Fernandes, think Bentancur will have to do, a little disappointed for 14M we didn't have Palhinha as a fighting option (he would have suited the game against Brentford).

I remain really surprised we didn't resign Palinha for another season. He would've started that game, agreed! And yes, I think that's right re: Bentancur.

6. Robertson for me remains the option against teams sitting back, but saw some of his reading of the game that bodes well.

However, my perspective on this game remains

- We may never see this lineup again for Spurs
- Fitness, tactics and player cohesion will also improve over time

Hard to get wound up when the lineup could be (in a week or two)
- Kinsky, Udogie, VDV, JVH, Porro, Fernandes, Tonali, Maddison, Savinho, Marmoush, Kudus (3 starters from Brentford game)

I chose to answer points where I didn't just agree with you, except for this last one, which I am replying to AND I simply agree with you!!!!!