Putin & Russia

[DTA]

Not really no. Afghanistan was first destabilised by the US funding the Mujahideen to fight...the Russians. All of these examples were brick shows, which weren't? So what you are saying is in these cases mention where we fueled war - either directly or indirectly - the outcome was "a brick show", yet we should now pursue this route, rather than try and de-escalate?

de-escalate is preferable of course … but at what cost?

is it ok for Russia to keep Crimea and most of the south? What happens if Russia wants part of Poland next de-escalate again? How about part of Germany?

actually how about part of Britain? Do we de-escalate again?

 

[SpurMeUp]

de-escalate is preferable of course … but at what cost?

is it ok for Russia to keep Crimea and most of the south? What happens if Russia wants part of Poland next de-escalate again? How about part of Germany?

actually how about part of Britain? Do we de-escalate again?

Everyone, including Russia, knows that any invasion of Poland, Germany or the UK would result in full force rebuttal.

As for what cost...de-esculation means everything is at less cost. Less cost to pensioners in the UK who can't heat homes, less cost to people who can't get food in Africa because grain is brought up by the west, less of our taxes paying for arms, less lives lost, less destruction of a nation.

 

[DTA]

Everyone, including Russia, knows that any invasion of Poland, Germany or the UK would result in full force rebuttal.

thats never been tested, has it? What makes article 5 more unwavering than the agreement we and the USA signed to defend Ukraine’s territorial integrity?

 

[metalgear]

de-escalate is preferable of course … but at what cost?

is it ok for Russia to keep Crimea and most of the south? What happens if Russia wants part of Poland next de-escalate again? How about part of Germany?

actually how about part of Britain? Do we de-escalate again?

Crimea...needed to be resolved but the world continued to trade with Russia. All the sanctions now are coming too late.
Why didn't Nato and the US respond then?

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[Gazza Dazzla]

Crimea...needed to be resolved but the world continued to trade with Russia. All the sanctions now are coming too late.
Why didn't Nato and the US respond then?

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The world should have 100% acted when he invaded Crimea. That seems to be what the world leaders are saying now, it’s a mistake they made and are basically apologizing to Ukraine for.

 

[DTA]

Crimea...needed to be resolved but the world continued to trade with Russia. All the sanctions now are coming too late.
Why didn't Nato and the US respond then?

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because appeasement happened

and now he has doing it again

Alepo was bombed to rubble… countless women and children died… but appeasement

so now he is doing it again.

 

[DTA]

As for what cost...everything is at less cost. Less cost to pensioners in the UK who can't heat homes, to people who can't get food in Africa because grain is brought up by the west, in our taxes paying for arms, in lives, in destruction.

So speak to Putin and ask him to remove his troops from Ukraine. The Ukrainians don’t want them there.

 

[Rorschach]

You can't see the irony? Escalating and fueling war causes more deaths and destruction. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Thought experiment: if your life was on the line, would you choose wrongful invasion but you live, or years of war, destruction and you lose your life?

I'm going to step out of this as we're going over old ground, but my point is that to appease Putin now and let him run roughshod over Ukraine would actually be to repeat history.

On your 2nd point, a question I have already been asked by coincidence, would I fight like the Ukrainians are if someone invaded my own country? I'd like to think I would even though I might pay the ultimate price. And if you knew me you would think this unlikely given my tree-hugging/liberal/peace-loving world view but some things are worth fighting for.

 

[metalgear]

because appeasement happened

and now he has doing it again

Alepo was bombed to rubble… countless women and children died… but appeasement

so now he is doing it again.

Yup Putin is no Saint and I am not a sympathiser.

I think Zelensky, Nato and the US played the wrong hand from the start. They never had the safety of the Ukraine people as their top priority.

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[metalgear]

I'm going to step out of this as we're going over old ground, but my point is that to appease Putin now and let him roughshod over Ukraine would actually be to repeat history.

On your 2nd point, a question I have already been asked by coincidence, would I fight like the Ukrainians are if someone invaded my own country? I'd like to think I would even though I might pay the ultimate price. And if you knew me you would think this unlikely given my tree-hugging/liberal/peace-loving world view but some things are worth fighting for.

There are other ways to fight. Issues like sovereignty and world peace may need longer term solutions.

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[SpurMeUp]

I'm going to step out of this as we're going over old ground, but my point is that to appease Putin now and let him roughshod over Ukraine would actually be to repeat history.

On your 2nd point, a question I have already been asked by coincidence, would I fight like the Ukrainians are if someone invaded my own country? I'd like to think I would even though I might pay the ultimate price. And if you knew me you would think this unlikely given my tree-hugging/liberal/peace-loving world view but some things are worth fighting for.

I do know you. And while there are no black and white answers to this, I am surprised you'd commit other people's lives to a cause that isn't yours. And I'm disheartened that people who are moved by this war are not by the suffering in Yemen, where arms made in our nation are killing many more innocent families than in Ukraine. We are on a side in this proxy war, and representations in the media are from that side too.

 

[SpurMeUp]

thats never been tested, has it? What makes article 5 more unwavering than the agreement we and the USA signed to defend Ukraine’s territorial integrity?

You have to look at the history. Have a meeting at 10, but there is a lot of water under the bridge - mostly already covered in this thread - as to why Ukraine-Russia is different to Poland-Russia.

 

[Rorschach]

I do know you. And while there are no black and white answers to this, I am surprised you'd commit other people's lives to a cause that isn't yours. And I'm disheartened that people who are moved by this war are not by the suffering in Yemen, where arms made in our nation are killing many more innocent families than in Ukraine. We are on a side in this proxy war, and representations in the media are from that side too.

That's an unfair post mate.

 

[SpurMeUp]

That's an unfair post mate.

Okay apologies. I don't want to cause upset. My point is, people like us, make decisions thousands of miles away re. wars, and history has shown that more often than not, innocent people are the victims of those decisions (with literally hundreds of thousands of lives lost in places like Syria). But it is complex and there aren't simple black or white right or wrong decisions. Everyone agrees that ultimately Russia is the aggressor, and is in the wrong. But how you deal with it, has huge implications. Negotiation, economic force and diplomacy have to be preferable to waging full-scale war.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

de-escalate is preferable of course … but at what cost?

is it ok for Russia to keep Crimea and most of the south? What happens if Russia wants part of Poland next de-escalate again? How about part of Germany?

actually how about part of Britain? Do we de-escalate again?

I am finding his posts in this thread bizarre to say the least. A lot of us on here have different opinions on political matters but I can not understand how anyone can not see Russia as the aggressor and having committed war crimes.

The remarks about us dealing with Saudi Arabia are valid concerns. But Russia is in the wrong and needs to be treated with strongly.

 

[Trixster]

It is not tanks they need really but air cover/defense according to almost every 'expert', and Zelensky himself.

They have around 50 Mig-29's, quite why they haven't had them up flying CAP is beyond me. Bit like why Russia hasn't made more use of theirs either.
Unless both sides lost so many in the starting phases of this and it just hasn't been reported, least not that I have seen.

 

[Jordinho]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1507291539499851780

 

[DTA]

I am finding his posts in this thread bizarre to say the least. A lot of us on here have different opinions on political matters but I can not understand how anyone can not see Russia as the aggressor and having committed war crimes.

The remarks about us dealing with Saudi Arabia are valid concerns. But Russia is in the wrong and needs to be treated with strongly.

i have to agree with this. And agree with what you and @SpurMeUp say about the Saudis as well. As well as what the Chinese are doing to Uyghurs

 

[Baleforce]

They have around 50 Mig-29's, quite why they haven't had them up flying CAP is beyond me. Bit like why Russia hasn't made more use of theirs either.
Unless both sides lost so many in the starting phases of this and it just hasn't been reported, least not that I have seen.

ground crew availability maybe, apparently for every person on the plane, there are five on the ground to keep it maintained, and they require years of training

 

[DTA]

You have to look at the history. Have a meeting at 10, but there is a lot of water under the bridge - mostly already covered in this thread - as to why Ukraine-Russia is different to Poland-Russia.

but the fact remains that the Ukrainians don’t want to be part of Russia, they are fighting against that now with all they have.

The Russian empire in its various forms has been both larger and smaller than it is now, encompassing many more sovereign nations at some points but also retracting substantial at other points.

if their whole claim to Ukraine is based on the fact that Ukrainians are Slavs that speak a similar language to them and have been part of previous Russian empires.

based on that logic the uk should have claims over the US Canada Australia New zealand and pretty much half the world.

There is also the fact that there are huge swathes of the Russian empire where there is very few ethnic Russians or even Slavs, so if they base there ‘moral’ claim on Ukraine on there being Slavs and closely related to Russians linguistically socially historically, ethnically and we have to respect that ‘moral’ claim what do they base their claim for sovereignty of places like Dagestan? Or almost the entirety of Siberia? They can’t have it both ways.

but to your other points, yeah we are supporting a war in Yeman because it makes financial sense to… that’s fudging disgusting… Saudi is a cuñt of a state that we shamelessly prop up